Is Abortion Murder?

[JacktheCatholic]

All this talk about babies in the womb not being a person like you or me is so sad. Jesus came to this place of sin and showed us how we should live. He did not judge us by our appearances. He did not say that the leper was less human or the crippled and feeble less human. Jesus embraced us all. Jesus showed the most compassion for the leper and the feeble and the crippled. Jesus showed particular compassion and protection towards the "little ones". The children...

Scriptures tells us God knows us before we are born. God has made these people in the womb and knows who we are before conception even. Yet people think there is no human in the womb until it looks like a cute huggable little girl or boy. BUT even these unborn children are murdered lawfully in this country. Have you ever seen pictures of aborted children? With their heads smashed and cut off. I dare to say you have not if you are pro-abortion.

 

[Fantine]

Jack the Catholic said: Jesus showed the most compassion for the leper and the feeble and the crippled.

And that is exactly how pro-lifers will change people's heart--by showing compassion for the lepers and the feeble and the crippled, and putting down their placards of 24 week fetuses that represent less than 4% of all abortions.

Let's just say, for argument's sake, that most women who have abortions do so because there isn't enough compassion in the world.

Not for them. Not for their children.

And so what's the best way to influence these women? Grotesque, misrepresentational placards and picketing? Or compassion?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

And that is exactly how pro-lifers will change people's heart--by showing compassion for the lepers and the feeble and the crippled, and putting down their placards of 24 week fetuses that represent less than 4% of all abortions.

Let's just say, for argument's sake, that most women who have abortions do so because there isn't enough compassion in the world.

Not for them. Not for their children.

And so what's the best way to influence these women? Grotesque, misrepresentational placards and picketing? Or compassion?

24 weeks is approximately 6 months or 2/3 of the pregnancy. I highly doubt 4% of all abortions happen in the first 6 months it must be 80% or so. Given that we have close to 1.5 million abortions a year that equates to 1,500,000 times 0.04 which equals 60,000. That is grossly wrong. It is far more probable that it looks more like 1,500,000 times 0.80 which equals 1,200,000 or 1.2 Million abortions.


You tell me what is the difference with the murder of over a million babies a year and the Holocaust in Germany during WWII? Tell me the Jews saw their deaths to be OK? This country is killing it's babies at higher numbers than Hitler's camps.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

9 weeks old

Five month or 20 week old

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is not what I am saying at all.

Maybe what I am saying is that if men had a real understanding of what an unwanted pregnancy meant to a woman they would think twice about pressuring them into having sex.....

Or perhaps if the woman became pregnant, they would think twice about walking away and saying, "It's not MY problem...."

Men have never had to bear the consequences of sex--unless they volunteered to.

Even today, an adulterous pregnant woman was executed in Nigeria while her adulterous partner suffered no punishment.....

And when Jesus prevented a woman from being stoned in the Gospels, there wasn't any man suffering his 'just' punishment next to her.

I agree
Also, maybe if men would take more responsibility, then fewer women would get abortions: because in some cases they do it because they don't know how to raise a child on their own.

I'm totally against abortions, but I think we should not forget about the women either...we should show them compassion and try to help them raise the children. There should be a balance. Some pro-life people talk as if the women don't matter, and some pro-choice people talk as if the babies don't matter...but BOTH matter to God.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is a GREAT POINT!

I read recently that something like 90% of women that have had an abortion later regret having made that decision. That is 90% regret it.

thanks.
I've read that too somewhere...and even though raising a child is hard (no one is denying that), in most cases it is still seen as a blessing and not regretted. It is very sad when a mother regrets giving birth to a child but in my knowledge that doesn't happen very often.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yes abortion is a sad thing. But the above isn;t representative of what is aborted. Most abortions take place early on when the fetus/baby would fit in the petri dish. Not to mention if instead of being aborted all would be aborted babies were given birth too, many would lead horrible unwanted and neglected lives. Many would likely come to wish that they had never been born. Being born isn;t always a blessing in many cases women having abortions are doing the baby a favor.

I disagree...only God should decide who gets to live and who gets to die...and we dont know the future and what kind of life the baby would actually have. On one hand I understand what you're trying to say, and I know you say that because you don't want the babies to suffer Neither do I. But...
I believe that being born is always a blessing. Of course I haven't suffered as much as many others, but there was one time in my life when I actually wished I was never born. (I'm not proud of that thought). But then, I felt God telling me that 1. He wanted to create me, 2. He knows how it's like to suffer, 3. He'll always be there to help, and 4. someday, there will be no more suffering, but only perfect joy. Who are we to argue? If God wants to create someone, He should get that chance.

 

[Calliso]

So you are saying you have the right to decide who should live and die?

Shouldn't we leave that determination to God?

Well I certainly donlt think I have the right to go up to someone right now and kill them. Just as I would never go up to a pregnant woman and tell her she must abort. But I do believe I have a right to my own body and anything inside it which includes an unborn baby. Not saying I would get an abortion..but I can;t say I wouldn;t not for sure. Which leads to another thing, if I can;t be sure on whether or not I would terminate a pregnancy how could I demand that other women keep theirs no matter what?

 

[happyfreak14]

24 weeks is approximately 6 months or 2/3 of the pregnancy. I highly doubt 4% of all abortions happen in the first 6 months it must be 80% or so. Given that we have close to 1.5 million abortions a year that equates to 1,500,000 times 0.04 which equals 60,000. That is grossly wrong. It is far more probable that it looks more like 1,500,000 times 0.80 which equals 1,200,000 or 1.2 Million abortions.

I think she meant that abortions at 24 weeks represented less than 4% not that abortions before 24 weeks represented less that 4%. and actually I think it's less than that.

You tell me what is the difference with the murder of over a million babies a year and the Holocaust in Germany during WWII? Tell me the Jews saw their deaths to be OK? This country is killing it's babies at higher numbers than Hitler's camps.

Godwin.

I agree
Also, maybe if men would take more responsibility, then fewer women would get abortions: because in some cases they do it because they don't know how to raise a child on their own.

I'm totally against abortions, but I think we should not forget about the women either...we should show them compassion and try to help them raise the children. There should be a balance. Some pro-life people talk as if the women don't matter, and some pro-choice people talk as if the babies don't matter...but BOTH matter to God.

I think if pro-life (well everyone actually) concentrated less on stopping abortion and more on providing available alternatives and preventing unwanted pregnancies it would do more to stop abortion that all the picketing and protesting. (though that could be just me.)

 

[Servant222]

I think if pro-life (well everyone actually) concentrated less on stopping abortion and more on providing available alternatives and preventing unwanted pregnancies it would do more to stop abortion that all the picketing and protesting. (though that could be just me.)

Oh- you mean they should read their Bible more and actually put its teachings regarding issues like promiscuity and pre-marital sex into practice?? What a novel idea!!

Great suggestion; I totally agree.

 

[happyfreak14]

most of the serious Christians I know already do. (put them into practice I mean.) I was thinking more practical ideas that might work with non-Christians as well.

 

[Calliso]

I think if pro-life (well everyone actually) concentrated less on stopping abortion and more on providing available alternatives and preventing unwanted pregnancies it would do more to stop abortion that all the picketing and protesting. (though that could be just me.)

You hit the nail on the head I think. Showing people pictures of 6 month old aborted fetus's, *which aren;t representative of most abortions* and picketing obviously isn;t working.

 

[Calliso]

most of the serious Christians I know already do. (put them into practice I mean.) I suspect stuff like sex education (including and possibly emphasizing the fact that abstinence is the only 100%) and encouraging the use of birth control would be more effective, because not everybody is going to just refrain from having sex outside of marriage, nice as it would be if they did.

Exactly just telling people not to have sex doesn;t work. And we can;t expect everyone not to have sex before marriage. Not everyone is brought up with that particular moral value anyway. Not to mention like I mentioned before..sex in marriage is no guarentee either, it;s just a little harder for the guy to leave.

 

[jad123]

Saying that men should be more responsible IS thinking about the babies.

Saying that men should be more empathetic IS thinking about the babies.

Just curious, how are men to more responsible when the laws are against us. If my wife becomes pregnant with OUR child she can have it aborted and I have no say in the matter what so ever. It has to work both ways. Woman can't in one breath say it is their bodies and in the next say the man is not responsible. Talk about hypocritical. You want men to be more responsible, great. I agree with you 100%. But then are you willing to give up the thought that only you can decide if the child is aborted?

 

[Calliso]

Just curious, how are men to more responsible when the laws are against us. If my wife becomes pregnant with OUR child she can have it aborted and I have no say in the matter what so ever. It has to work both ways. Woman can't in one breath say it is their bodies and in the next say the man is not responsible. Talk about hypocritical. You want men to be more responsible, great. I agree with you 100%. But then are you willing to give up the thought that only you can decide if the child is aborted?

I think that the a married or unmarried woman should certainly listen to her husbands or boyfriends side of things.
However in the end someone is going to have to make the final decision. And since the woman is the one who has to go through the actual pregnancy and birth and so forth she should have that final choice. But no the comments about men not being responsible I think were more about the fact that men have a much easier time walking away from a pregnancy situation then a woman. If a woman gets pregnant short of a spontaneous miscarriage she is going to have to make a tough choice or choices.

 

[jad123]

I think that the a married or unmarried woman should certainly listen to her husbands or boyfriends side of things.
However in the end someone is going to have to make the final decision. And since the woman is the one who has to go through the actual pregnancy and birth and so forth she should have that final choice. But no the comments about men not being responsible I think were more about the fact that men have a much easier time walking away from a pregnancy situation then a woman. If a woman gets pregnant short of a spontaneous miscarriage she is going to have to make a tough choice or choices.

So someone has to make the final decision. So that is the woman in your eyes since she is the one who is pregnant. It is irrelevant whether or not the man wants the baby.

I keep seeing things about choice. The man and woman make a choice to have sex. The outcome of sex may be a child. One knows this going into that. The choice already has been made. This is not a male or female thing. That child is as much the mans as it is the womans. The majority of abortions mothers give pathetic excuses like, don't want hurt my career, don't have the money, already have 2 kids don't want anymore. Give me a break. This "me" society we live in is ridiculous. How anyone, especially Christians, support murdering a child is beyond explanation. We seem to care more trees getting cut down than babies.

 

[Calliso]

So someone has to make the final decision. So that is the woman in your eyes since she is the one who is pregnant. It is irrelevant whether or not the man wants the baby.

I keep seeing things about choice. The man and woman make a choice to have sex. The outcome of sex may be a child. One knows this going into that. The choice already has been made. This is not a male or female thing. That child is as much the mans as it is the womans. The majority of abortions mothers give pathetic excuses like, don't want hurt my career, don't have the money, already have 2 kids don't want anymore. Give me a break. This "me" society we live in is ridiculous. How anyone, especially Christians, support murdering a child is beyond explanation. We seem to care more trees getting cut down than babies.

Eh I donlt think the excuses you listed are pathetic really. Maybe not the best reasons ever but not pathetic. I mean I donlt want any kids what so ever. Getting pregnant would be a tragedy for me and while I can;t say I would have an abortion for sure I could definately understand why someone who feels as I do would. Same thing for a person that has all the kids they want.But really do you think married couples just shouldn;t have sex unless they want to procreate?


Also I never said that it is irrelevant whether or not the man wants the baby. His feelings should certainly be taken into consideration. But in cases like this a decision does have to be made. And while ideally the decision would be a joint one sometimes a agreement wonlt be able to be reached. In that case the woman should get the final say. I mean just like lets say they were talking about getting the husband sterilized. In the end the husband should get the final say because it is his body.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think if pro-life (well everyone actually) concentrated less on stopping abortion and more on providing available alternatives and preventing unwanted pregnancies it would do more to stop abortion that all the picketing and protesting. (though that could be just me.)

yea, I agree the long way around is the shortest way home?

 

[jad123]

Eh I donlt think the excuses you listed are pathetic really. Maybe not the best reasons ever but not pathetic. I mean I donlt want any kids what so ever. Getting pregnant would be a tragedy for me and while I can;t say I would have an abortion for sure I could definately understand why someone who feels as I do would. Same thing for a person that has all the kids they want.But really do you think married couples just shouldn;t have sex unless they want to procreate?

I have heard better excuses for someone killing their spouse. I have two great kids. My wife and I do not want any more children. It would be difficult financially but that is no reason to kill.

Also I never said that it is irrelevant whether or not the man wants the baby. His feelings should certainly be taken into consideration. But in cases like this a decision does have to be made. And while ideally the decision would be a joint one sometimes a agreement wonlt be able to be reached. In that case the woman should get the final say. I mean just like lets say they were talking about getting the husband sterilized. In the end the husband should get the final say because it is his body.

Your right it is his body to get sterilized. The same way as it is the womens body to decide to have a tubal ligation. It is not the womans body when she kills the child growing inside her.

 

[Phinehas2]

Well they do concentrate on providing available alternatives and preventing unwanted pregnancies but it gets rejected. ABC is one example to prevent both unwanted pregancies and AIDS, but when it is proposed by Bill Gates it gets 'booed out'. But the Christian teaching is God's purpose is for faithful marriage between and woman where pregancies are wanted. The problem is sex. Societies are slaves to the god of sex.
In the first case the A of ABC, abstinence is the only 100% sure way of avoiding AIDS or an unwanted pregnancy yet its the only one people object to and is rarely on the agenda; do people really care about these things.
Abrotion is terminating a life, there is no question about it.