Is Abortion Murder?

[joshuawilliamworth]

It is murder.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

How you read my post and then came to those conclusions I have no idea. But a fetus hasn;t even developed the ablity to think or feel emotion or anything like that. The point I was trying to make was simply that people shouldn;t apply thoughts and emotions to fetus's. For instance I can say right now I am glad I was born. But if I had been aborted as a fetus would I have cared? No because I wouldn;t have existed and even if I had a soul and was up in heaven..if Iwas in heaven do you really really think I would be going darn I wish I had been born!....

What does any of that matter when God says not to kill and he says he knows us before we are born?

My response, by the way, was in line with your thinking which excludes morality from God and based on your reasoning of emotion and mental capacity.

 

[Sojourner<><]

1) I was leery of using the nobel prize winner extension for exactly that reason. I don't think that; the nobel prize thing kind of grew out of the Harvard graduate analogy used earlier. however, the comparative value of a child and a nobel-prize winner wasn't really the issue, the issue was the comparative value of a sperm. if a sperm is a potential child, but is not a child, then potential =/= existing.
2)that's not Social Darwinism.

Ok, if you're saying that a single sperm is not as valuable as a nobel prize winner, I'll agree, but I don't agree with your line of logic that a sperm = a fetus = a potential nobel prize winner.

A sperm is not a fetus, but if a sperm fertilizes an egg, then the natural processes after that point tend to result in the development of a human being. So in my view, I would say that we should see the fertilized egg as of equal value to a nobel prize winner because we are not qualified to judge how one person is more worthy than another. That's God's place.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

A sperm is not a fetus, but if a sperm fertilizes an egg, then the natural processes after that point tend to result in the development of a human being. So in my view, I would say that we should see the fertilized egg as of equal value to a nobel prize winner because we are not qualified to judge how one person is more worthy than another. That's God's place.

And I doubt that nobel prize winners are more "valuable" than other people. God does not care about worldly success.

 

[happyfreak14]

like I said, that part wasn't really the point and I didn't mean it that way.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

like I said, that part wasn't really the point and I didn't mean it that way.

You ever seen "The Meaning of Life"?

They had a part where they were singing "every sperm is sacred" and it was hilarious. Of course Mel Brooks was not depicting an accurate view of Catholic doctrine but still... it was funny.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

like I said, that part wasn't really the point and I didn't mean it that way.

I know I was just making a general comment.

 

[Servant222]

This is a great passage. "The baby leaped in her womb"; not the foetus leaped in her womb- the baby.


Luke 1:

39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

 

[happyfreak14]

You ever seen "The Meaning of Life"?

They had a part where they were singing "every sperm is sacred" and it was hilarious. Of course Mel Brooks was not depicting an accurate view of Catholic doctrine but still... it was funny.

not all the way through, but I've heard the song elsewhere.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate...

 

[Servant222]

Here is another great passage that speaks of how God knows us before we were even conceived.

Jeremiah 1

4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

 

[Ave Maria]

Absolutely yes it is murder! It may not be murder in the eyes of the government but it is murder in the eyes of God and that is what matters!

 

[Fantine]

I often hear people who are pro-choice argue that women should have control of their bodies and should not be forced to sacrifice their physical comfort, figures, etc. for a fetus.

And many times there is resentment that men are never forced to relinquish their comfort, etc.

I propose that we even the score....

Laws should be passed requiring all men to volunteer to be kidney or bone marrow donors, and, at any time of the day or night, they could be called (and forced) to donate...

This would give them an appreciation of women's situation, and it would give women the idea that the playing field had been leveled.

Then, at that point, with women and men equally responsible to "give life" (as parents or donors) and equally vulnerable to the risk, society could decide its priorities.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I often hear people who are pro-choice argue that women should have control of their bodies and should not be forced to sacrifice their physical comfort, figures, etc. for a fetus.

And many times there is resentment that men are never forced to relinquish their comfort, etc.

I propose that we even the score....

Laws should be passed requiring all men to volunteer to be kidney or bone marrow donors, and, at any time of the day or night, they could be called (and forced) to donate...

This would give them an appreciation of women's situation, and it would give women the idea that the playing field had been leveled.

Then, at that point, with women and men equally responsible to "give life" (as parents or donors) and equally vulnerable to the risk, society could decide its priorities.

You are missing the big picture here.

The woman commits homocide with an abortion. If a man does not donate a kidney he is not killing someone.

Also if a woman has sex and gets pregnant then she should be married and prepared for a family otherwise she should abstain. Sex is not for your pleasure. God makes sex pleasurable becauase it is procreation. Sex is designed for procreation and not everyone's pleasure. So, be responsible. If you have sex then expect that you will get pregnant.

 

[happyfreak14]

The woman commits homocide with an abortion. If a man does not donate a kidney he is not killing someone.

someone would die without a kidney transplant which you could give them and you withhold it. they die.

a fetus would die without a womb to gestate in and a woman withholds it. they die.
why is she a murderer and you're not?

Also if a woman has sex and gets pregnant then she should be married and prepared for a family otherwise she should abstain. Sex is not for your pleasure. God makes sex pleasurable becauase it is procreation. Sex is designed for procreation and not everyone's pleasure. So, be responsible. If you have sex then expect that you will get pregnant.

so the reason she's a murderer and you're not is that she deserves to be punished for having sex?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

someone would die without a kidney transplant which you could give them and you withhold it. they die.

a fetus would die without a womb to gestate in and a woman withholds it. they die.
why is she a murderer and you're not?

Yes, the result is death and that is the only similarity.

Abortion is murder because the mother and doctor are killing a baby. The mother sets the death sentence and the doctor breaks the baby's skull and dismembers it.

If someone needs a kidney it is a natural case where death is not incurred by a person but by natural events. Of course donating a kidney would be a great act of love but not donating a kidney would never be considered murder.

so the reason she's a murderer and you're not is that she deserves to be punished for having sex?

No... again you are missing the big picture. Like not seeing the forest for all the trees.

To start you are concentrating on the term of pregnancy. My wife would never call that punishment. It was uncomfortable for her especially the last couple of months. She has stretch marks from it too. But she also helped God bring another human soul into the world to help build Jesus' kingdom in Heaven.

I really think you should consider that you are comparing the discomfort of pregnancy and stretch marks with the taking of a human life.

 

[happyfreak14]

Abortion is murder because the mother and doctor are killing a baby. The mother sets the death sentence and the doctor breaks the baby's skull and dismembers it.

If someone needs a kidney it is a natural case where death is not incurred by a person but by natural events. Of course donating a kidney would be a great act of love but not donating a kidney would never be considered murder.

so the difference is that when she does it it's active and when you do it it's passive.

I really think you should consider that you are comparing the discomfort of pregnancy and stretch marks with the taking of a human life.

where did that come from?

what I was talking about was the fact that you seem to be saying "she messed up so she deserves whatever she gets."
you said the woman was a murderer and the non-kidney-donor wasn't. you immediately thereafter explained that she should have abstained. I said that it looked to me like you were saying the reason she's a murderer and you're not is that she deserved to be pregnant and the non-kidney-donor did not deserve to donate a kidney. what do stretch marks have to do with anything?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

so the difference is that when she does it it's active and when you do it it's passive.

What about the baby?

where did that come from?

what I was talking about was the fact that you seem to be saying "she messed up so she deserves whatever she gets."
you said the woman was a murderer and you non-kidney-donor wasn't. you immediately thereafter explained that she should have abstained. that I said that it looked to me like you were saying the reason she's a murderer and you're not is that she deserved it. what do stretch marks have to do with anything?

Why is it that none of your posts consider the baby?

 

[Fantine]

What about the baby?




Why is it that none of your posts consider the baby?

Jack, it is so obvious that you're a man.

Here is what I am saying. A young woman of no particular religious persuasion becomes pregnant. She is required by law to sacrifice her comfort, figure, and endure loss of income to give birth to this baby (if abortion were outlawed.)

Women are half the human race.

In order to make this world fairer, why should we not put a requirement on men (like you) that you all must register to become kidney and bone marrow donors? Is not the act of giving life to another human being important, even if you must suffer discomfort, loss of income from work, and scars for it?

You say there is a difference, but to those who believe that life doesn't begin at conception, there isn't.

I think it would be good for men to at least consider the possibility of a society in which they were forced, involuntarily, to be kidney and bone marrow donors, in order that they might better understand women's situation.

 

[happyfreak14]

I am now going to shut up. Fantine says it better.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Here is what I am saying. A young woman of no particular religious persuasion becomes pregnant. She is required by law to sacrifice her comfort, figure, and endure loss of income to give birth to this baby (if abortion were outlawed.)

Give birth to the baby or in other words let the Baby live.

Again you ignore the child.

There are at least two people involved in a pregnancy, the mother AND the child(ren).

Your whole argument is for the comfort of the woman and you conmpletely ignore the life of the unborn child(ren).

You argument is the same as some man saying it was completely morally and ethically acceptable to kill his wife because her incessant nagging was making him uncomfortable. Sounds crazy don't it.