Is a Contiguous Count of Daniel’s 70 Weeks found in New Testament Writings?

[grafted branch]

Can you see here that Jacob and Esau represented "two nations" and "two peoples"? So, the context of what Paul was saying was not in relation to the individual election and salvation of Jacob and the damnation of Esau, but rather was in relation to God's plan of salvation and which nation He would work out His plan of salvation through. The nation of Israel descended from Jacob while the nation of Edom descended from Esau. Obviously, God chose to bring salvation through the nation of Israel ("salvation is from the Jews" - John 4:22). He could have chosen Edom instead if He wanted to, but He didn't. He could do it however He wanted and no one can question that (which is what Romans 9:14 means).

I do see that Jacob and Esau represent 2 peoples or nations. The counter argument some people will make is that there has always only been 2 groups of people, the saved and the unsaved, which is ultimately what Jacob and Esau represent.

I also see the clear language of Paul telling the jailer to believe. I know this topic has been looked at from multiple angles by many of the church fathers and I don’t know if believers as a group will ever agree on this. I heard someone once say that he accepted Christ by his own free will but once he became saved and looked back on his life he realized it was Gods will all along.

Scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2) and that God wants everyone to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). With that in mind what other explanation can there be for the fact that not all people repent and are saved (despite God wanting them to) except that people are given the free will and responsibility to choose whether to repent and accept Christ or not?

One of the things that I have trouble understanding about free will is why a person that believes in free will would pray for the salvation of another person.


If Christ has done everything possible and salvation is up to an individual who needs to use their free will to decide, then asking God to save would be asking God to force someone against their will.

I can understand someone believing in election asking God to save someone else and I can understand a free will person telling God their desire for someone to become saved but it seems to contradict their own beliefs for a free will person to actually ask God to save someone else.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I do see that Jacob and Esau represent 2 peoples or nations. The counter argument some people will make is that there has always only been 2 groups of people, the saved and the unsaved, which is ultimately what Jacob and Esau represent.

That's not what scripture teaches, though.. They represented two nations, Israel and Edom. Not everyone from Israel was saved and not everyone from Edom was condemned. To make it that they represent the saved and the lost is unbiblical.

I also see the clear language of Paul telling the jailer to believe. I know this topic has been looked at from multiple angles by many of the church fathers and I don’t know if believers as a group will ever agree on this. I heard someone once say that he accepted Christ by his own free will but once he became saved and looked back on his life he realized it was Gods will all along.

So, is it God's will all along for that person's unsaved neighbor to never be saved? Scripture clearly teaches that God wants all people to repent and to be saved (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, etc.). So, with that being the case why would anyone believe that He wouldn't give everyone the opportunity to repent and be saved?

One of the things that I have trouble understanding about free will is why a person that believes in free will would pray for the salvation of another person.

I don't know why they would do that. I don't do that. I pray that God will give them the opportunity to be saved by having the gospel preached clearly to them. But, He doesn't force anyone to believe.

If Christ has done everything possible and salvation is up to an individual who needs to use their free will to decide, then asking God to save would be asking God to force someone against their will.

Right, I agree. It doesn't make sense.

I can understand someone believing in election asking God to save someone else and I can understand a free will person telling God their desire for someone to become saved but it seems to contradict their own beliefs for a free will person to actually ask God to save someone else.

Sure, it does. I agree.

 

[grafted branch]

So, is it God's will all along for that person's unsaved neighbor to never be saved?

The neighbor could be a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction.

Scripture clearly teaches that God wants all people to repent and to be saved (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, etc.). So, with that being the case why would anyone believe that He wouldn't give everyone the opportunity to repent and be saved?

God knows what will or won’t happen before creation. Why would God create someone knowing full well that that person would never become saved? Does God do things against His own will?

 

[Timtofly]

I do see that Jacob and Esau represent 2 peoples or nations. The counter argument some people will make is that there has always only been 2 groups of people, the saved and the unsaved, which is ultimately what Jacob and Esau represent.

I also see the clear language of Paul telling the jailer to believe. I know this topic has been looked at from multiple angles by many of the church fathers and I don’t know if believers as a group will ever agree on this. I heard someone once say that he accepted Christ by his own free will but once he became saved and looked back on his life he realized it was Gods will all along.

One of the things that I have trouble understanding about free will is why a person that believes in free will would pray for the salvation of another person.


If Christ has done everything possible and salvation is up to an individual who needs to use their free will to decide, then asking God to save would be asking God to force someone against their will.

I can understand someone believing in election asking God to save someone else and I can understand a free will person telling God their desire for someone to become saved but it seems to contradict their own beliefs for a free will person to actually ask God to save someone else.

Do you think God saved the Apostle Paul against his will?

 

[grafted branch]

Do you think God saved the Apostle Paul against his will?

Did Paul have free will to begin with? 2 Corinthians 4:4 says the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. Prior to Paul/Saul believing, he believed not and had a mind that was blinded.

So while we don’t have scripture that says God forces his will, we do see Satan forcing blindness on unbelievers.

Let me ask you this, was it Paul’s/Saul’s will to see the light on the road to Damascus, did he have a choice or was this light put upon him against his will?

 

[Timtofly]

Did Paul have free will to begin with? 2 Corinthians 4:4 says the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. Prior to Paul/Saul believing, he believed not and had a mind that was blinded.

So while we don’t have scripture that says God forces his will, we do see Satan forcing blindness on unbelievers.

Let me ask you this, was it Paul’s/Saul’s will to see the light on the road to Damascus, did he have a choice or was this light put upon him against his will?

You did not even answer the question, but changed the subject. We were not talking about free will. We were talking about God changing a person's will.

Then you turn around and ask me the same question I asked you. I asked you first.

Are you really saying humans have no will at all?

Scripture also points out a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. So are you saying God is just sitting there switching one's mind back and forth willy nilly just to make things turn out a certain way? Humans are just bumper cars in some Chaotic mess that ends up with purpose eventually? Obviously God is just pulling the strings. This is a computer simulated game, and the game cannot even think for itself. Literally no competition, but God is just acting for both sides, or there really are no sides at all since it is God even thinking for the computer which has no ability to challenge God any way.

God is both the computer and the player?

 

[grafted branch]

You did not even answer the question, but changed the subject. We were not talking about free will. We were talking about God changing a person's will.

Then you turn around and ask me the same question I asked you. I asked you first.

I asked you the same question because there is no way of knowing what Paul’s will was or whether it was changed at any moment unless he tells us. I don’t want to guess at what his will was.

Look at Romans 7:14-20 where Paul says for to will is present in me; but to perform that which is good I find not. Paul’s actions are not necessary his will.

Are you really saying humans have no will at all?

Scripture also points out a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. So are you saying God is just sitting there switching one's mind back and forth willy nilly just to make things turn out a certain way? Humans are just bumper cars in some Chaotic mess that ends up with purpose eventually? Obviously God is just pulling the strings. This is a computer simulated game, and the game cannot even think for itself. Literally no competition, but God is just acting for both sides, or there really are no sides at all since it is God even thinking for the computer which has no ability to challenge God any way.

What are the options here? God creates people who are like robots that do exactly what he knew they would do before he created them or God creates people with a free will that he doesn’t know exactly what they will do? God can’t give anyone the ability to do things that He doesn’t already know they will do. If He did prophecy would be in doubt, what if a future antichrist decided to accept Jesus as his savior?


The bottom line here is that the scriptures give examples that appear to show both people having free will and people not having free will.

 

[Timtofly]

I asked you the same question because there is no way of knowing what Paul’s will was or whether it was changed at any moment unless he tells us. I don’t want to guess at what his will was.

Look at Romans 7:14-20 where Paul says for to will is present in me; but to perform that which is good I find not. Paul’s actions are not necessary his will.


What are the options here? God creates people who are like robots that do exactly what he knew they would do before he created them or God creates people with a free will that he doesn’t know exactly what they will do? God can’t give anyone the ability to do things that He doesn’t already know they will do. If He did prophecy would be in doubt, what if a future antichrist decided to accept Jesus as his savior?


The bottom line here is that the scriptures give examples that appear to show both people having free will and people not having free will.

Paul was going around killing Christians. You would claim that was God's will that Paul was doing. Then God changed Paul's will, and he started to spread the Gospel. Your point is that both were God's will. God just flipped a switch.

What Scripture shows is that at certain times God reserves the right to prevent a human from obeying God. Not a very good place to be at. No Scripture claims God forces a person to obey God. God did not force Paul to change his will.

What God knows is the outcome of free will. Knowledge does not demand an outcome. That is ridiculous. Humans are not robots, and life is not a computer simulation.

 

[grafted branch]

Paul was going around killing Christians. You would claim that was God's will that Paul was doing. Then God changed Paul's will, and he started to spread the Gospel. Your point is that both were God's will. God just flipped a switch.

I personally can’t comprehend the mind of God to be able to discern what His complete will is in every situation. If you know exactly what Gods will was concerning Paul through out his lifetime, then you know more than me.

What God knows is the outcome of free will. Knowledge does not demand an outcome. That is ridiculous. Humans are not robots, and life is not a computer simulation.

But if God knows someone will not choose to believe before that person is created then how can it be Gods will that that person believe? Does God have to create unbelievers, does He do things against His own will?

 

[Timtofly]

I personally can’t comprehend the mind of God to be able to discern what His complete will is in every situation. If you know exactly what Gods will was concerning Paul through out his lifetime, then you know more than me.

But if God knows someone will not choose to believe before that person is created then how can it be Gods will that that person believe? Does God have to create unbelievers, does He do things against His own will?

How does God "create" unbelievers? No such ability. Without God conception would not happen. But conception is just a natural law with a natural outcome.

The only specified will of God is that all of Adam's offspring come to repentance and none parish. But God does not force that will on any one, period. Not even in the conception process. What is unusual about John the Baptist is that even in the womb, he was said to be self aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I don't see that meaning God forced John to be something that John had no ability to do otherwise.

If one cannot even know the mind of God nor His will for every single person every minute of their life, why even state a point there is no free will, but God is constantly pulling the strings as a puppet master. Is that not defeating your own premise of not knowing?

Human imagination produces a scenario, and then declares that scenario null and void for lack of knowledge.

I doubt many will deny that at certain points in history God prevents a person by taking away their ability to choose. But that cannot be a point that God does that every day, thus no free will period. There are way more examples of people having free will than loosing the ability to exercise that free will.

 

[grafted branch]

why even state a point there is no free will,

Because in order to have free will neither God nor Satan can force their will.


Free will; the power to make choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by necessity.


2 Corinthians 4:4 says the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. How can someone have free will if Satan is blinding the mind of that person?

 

[Timtofly]

Because in order to have free will neither God nor Satan can force their will.


Free will; the power to make choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by necessity.


2 Corinthians 4:4 says the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. How can someone have free will if Satan is blinding the mind of that person?

That would be when one no longer has a choice, not that they never had a choice to begin with.

You are putting the result as the cause, instead of the cause, which is the choice of an individual that was made at one point.

 

[grafted branch]

That would be when one no longer has a choice, not that they never had a choice to begin with.

You are putting the result as the cause, instead of the cause, which is the choice of an individual that was made at one point.

So if I understand you correctly, while someone is agnostic they can have free will but once a person believes not, then their mind gets blinded.

The parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19 has the wicked one catching away that which was sown in the heart of one who understandeth it not.

Would you say people who don’t understand the word have free will?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The neighbor could be a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction.

That doesn't mean that is what God intended for that person from the beginning. Pharaoh could be described that way, but that doesn't mean that's what God wanted for him from the day he was born. God saw that Pharaoh had already hardened His own heart and God can use people like that for a purpose if He wants to. It doesn't mean they had never had the opportunity to repent, though.

God knows what will or won’t happen before creation. Why would God create someone knowing full well that that person would never become saved? Does God do things against His own will?

You're not differentiating between God's will and His desire. His will can't be thwarted but His desires can. Again, scripture clearly teaches that God wants all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:31) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6) as evidenced by Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2). So, what does that tell you about why not all people are saved? God knowing what people will do ahead of time is irrelevant. He doesn't predetermine what everyone will do.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because in order to have free will neither God nor Satan can force their will.


Free will; the power to make choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by necessity.


2 Corinthians 4:4 says the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. How can someone have free will if Satan is blinding the mind of that person?

Where does this say that Satan forced them to be blind? You are overestimating his power here. He can't blind anyone's mind without their cooperation. Read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice what happens first here. People "refused to love the truth and so be saved". This is very important to understand. It is only AFTER people have repeatedly "refused to love the truth and so be saved" that Satan can step in and blind their minds. They make themselves vulnerable to Satan's schemes. Whose fault is that? Their own, right? Not Satan's fault. It's not God's fault for (supposedly) making it so that they can't accept the truth. It's their fault for refusing "to love the truth and so be saved".

Why would people be condemned if they had no ability to repent and accept Christ? That would make no sense. This passage shows that the reason they are condemned is because they "refused to love the truth and so be saved" and "have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness". And that is by their own choice. Why condemn someone for not believing if they aren't even capable of doing so? What kind of God would do that to someone? Not the God I know.

It's kind of funny that you said before that you didn't want to debate this when it seems like you actually do.

 

[grafted branch]

Where does this say that Satan forced them to be blind? You are overestimating his power here. He can't blind anyone's mind without their cooperation. Read this:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice what happens first here. People "refused to love the truth and so be saved". This is very important to understand. It is only AFTER people have repeatedly "refused to love the truth and so be saved" that Satan can step in and blind their minds. They make themselves vulnerable to Satan's schemes. Whose fault is that? Their own, right? Not Satan's fault. It's not God's fault for (supposedly) making it so that they can't accept the truth. It's their fault for refusing "to love the truth and so be saved".

Ok, you make a good point here. I’m thinking about this, from the Amil perspective could the binding of Satan include preventing his ability to blind people?


Also, what about the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19 has the wicked one catching away that which was sown in the heart of one who understandeth it not.

Would you say people who don’t understand the word have free will?

It's kind of funny that you said before that you didn't want to debate this when it seems like you actually do.

Yea, I really didn’t intend to get this involved but I do see some things here that I find interesting.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Ok, you make a good point here. I’m thinking about this, from the Amil perspective could the binding of Satan include preventing his ability to blind people?

No, it wouldn't make sense for me to say that because Paul was talking about it happening at the time he wrote 2 Cor 4:4 and I believe he was bound before that. I don't believe he was bound from blinding people who had already blinded themselves, I believe he was bound from keeping them from hearing the gospel and having the opportunity to be saved. But, once someone repeatedly refuses to accept the gospel then that leaves them vulnerable to Satan's schemes and allows him the opportunity to blind them. Again, just read 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 to see the order of how things happen. It doesn't start with Satan blinding people, it starts with people blinding themselves because of refusing to accept the truth.

Also, what about the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19 has the wicked one catching away that which was sown in the heart of one who understandeth it not.

Would you say people who don’t understand the word have free will?

Sure, why not? You'll have to be a bit more specific so that I can see what you're trying to get at here.

 

[grafted branch]

Sure, why not? You'll have to be a bit more specific so that I can see what you're trying to get at here.

Well, Matthew 13:19 implies that if a person doesn’t understand then Satan takes the word from their heart. 1 John 2:27 says the anointing teacheth you of all things.

I guess my question would be how can someone understand before they get the Holy Spirit? Or would a person have to use their free will to change the type of soil they are first before the seed (word) falls on them?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, Matthew 13:19 implies that if a person doesn’t understand then Satan takes the word from their heart. 1 John 2:27 says the anointing teacheth you of all things.

The question that has to be answered here is why does the person not understand the gospel? My view is that it's because they are not open to it. Notice how there are others who hear it and at first receive it with joy but then they fall away when trouble or persecution comes. So, those people are open to the gospel but only if it doesn't cause them any trouble or if they don't have to suffer because of it. Everyone has to choose whether they are open to receiving the gospel message or not.

I guess my question would be how can someone understand before they get the Holy Spirit? Or would a person have to use their free will to change the type of soil they are first before the seed (word) falls on them?

What do you mean "before they get the Holy Spirit"? I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to all people about their need to repent and believe the gospel, but some resist it like we can see here:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

God wanted the Jews who were rejecting the gospel that Stephen was preaching to them to be saved, but they resisted His Spirit. He doesn't force anyone to believe. People have to be willing to listen and accept His call for them to repent and believe in His Son.

Read this:

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

What was the reason that most of the Jews rejected Jesus? Because that was God's will? No, of course not. Jesus made it clear that He longed for them to be His spiritual children, but they "were not willing". When people aren't saved it isn't because God isn't willing, it's because they are not willing.

 

[Timtofly]

So if I understand you correctly, while someone is agnostic they can have free will but once a person believes not, then their mind gets blinded.

The parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19 has the wicked one catching away that which was sown in the heart of one who understandeth it not.

Would you say people who don’t understand the word have free will?

Now we are leaving the point about choice, and moving onto hearing or not hearing the Gospel.

Free will is not the same as being in the dark about the need to even be saved. If Satan has blinded humanity and stolen the Gospel that has no bearing whatsoever on one's free will, even if it seems there should be a similarity somehow.

So no, I do not equate one who never hears the Gospel as the same as forcing them against their will to reject God. How can they reject what they do not even know?

Does a person have free will if there is nothing to choose? Sure. The ability to choose is dependent on having no coercion, not on the lack of knowledge. Lack of knowledge is not the same thing as an inability to choose. Those who are reprobate know the truth, and know they can never accept the truth. Deception or lack of knowledge is not relevant.

You cannot claim free will does not exist, based solely on the point one has nothing to choose. Free will only steps in when one can choose. I am not sure that in a modern setting where information runs rampant, that is even an argument. Yet even in king David's time, it was declared that no man is without excuse. That was centuries before the Cross and the preaching of the Gospel. The flip side is today you have too many "gospels". So many are decieved, yet still not for sure these are valid excuses, but just excuses that humans give, thus declared by Jesus as reasons the gospel is not known.

But still, free will is based on coercion against one's ability to choose. Or they have no choice because someone else made the choice for them. Satan snatching away the gospel is not removing choice, it is removing knowledge. That is a round about way to stop a person from making a choice, but certainly not making the choice for them.

I do not know any one who is so bound by another being's will they have lost all will themselves. Certainly even the lost frown upon such a maneuver by another individual. Yes it happens. People who have been locked up as slaves. People brainwashed in cults. These are not rules that govern free will. These are aberrant behavior of a few individuals not in their right mind themselves who have seriously harmed the minds of others.

An example of side stepping free will is infant baptism. Alledgedly this is to confirm some how a redemptive process. Obviously that is coercion of one's will, because others took that choice away and forced them into reliance on a false belief. There was literally no choice but a knowledge declared about that individual. Otherwise there is really no example of God directly forcing one into eternal life without a choice made by that individual. There is no example of Satan going against a person's will and forcing that person into damnation without a choice. Or vice versa these two scenarios.

Yes the gospel has been hindered and darkness ruled the day, but still not a point to claim free will does not exist. God's Word points out, no one has an excuse, nor can they say they had no free will to choose. Even though the gospel is recieved, or hindered because of a list of excuses why one "missed" the gospel their whole life, free will still exist.

Now those who cannot choose also need to be defined. The fine line between having a will and understanding even what sin is. Has God chosen to redeem all abortions? Has God chosen to redeem those with severe mental issues where the knowledge of sin is not even known nor understood? Do some have a will that is locked against accepting God because of a mental condition. I don't have an answer. But this still does not mean there is no free will.