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Is ‘Lucifer’ the Planet Venus?

JimB

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Is ‘Lucifer’ the Planet Venus?

The word heōsphoros does not appear in Kittel, because it does not appear in the NT. This word is the Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Hebrew הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (hêlēl ben šaḥar) in Isa 14:12. (Incidentally, the Qamets under the Shin in שָׁחַר is a pausal form used with a heavy accent; the contextual from is with Patach, שַׁחַר, and in both cases the word is accented on the first syllable.) To understand how the KJV reads “Lucifer,” we need to look at the Hebrew, the language in which most of the OT was composed, then the LXX, the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT, and the Vulgate, Jerome’s Latin translation of the Hebrew OT.

First, the Hebrew. The phrase consists of three words. Hêlēlis found only here in the Hebrew OT, but is a word derived from a verb meaning “to shine.” The noun would presumably mean “shining one.” The second word, ben, means “son of.” Šaḥar is found 24 times in the Hebrew OT. It basically means “dawn” (cf. Gen 19.15). In some cultures “Dawn” was the name of a god. Isaiah was probably using the phrase הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר, “shining one [=star], son of the Dawn,” as a poetic reference to the planet Venus. The Hebrews used the same word כּוֹכָב (kôkab) to refer to either a star or a planet. But the literal planet Venus was probably being used to refer to an astral deity. Isaiah used this deity to represent the king of Babylon as a (self-proclaimed?) divine figure. This has the effect of making the king’s fall greater and therefore more dramatic.

Second, the Greek. The three-word Hebrew phrase is rendered by ὁ ἑωσφόρος ὁ πρωὶ ἀνατέλλων (ho heōsphoros ho prōi anatellōn), “O Heosphoros, who rises early/who raises the morning.” The key word, heōsphoros, has two parts: heōs means “morning” and phoros means “bearer, one who brings.” Heōsphoros, “bringer of the morning/dawn,” is again a reference to the planet Venus. Thus, though heōsphoros is not a literal translation of hêlēl ben šaḥar, it is an accurate translation of a phrase referring to Venus, an exact equivalent of hêlēl ben šaḥar. The interpretation of the Bible text by the LXX translators is probably the same as that mentioned above.

Third, the Latin. The exact Latin equivalent of the Greek Heosphoros is Lucifer. Luci comes from lux meaning “light” and fer is the same as the Greek phoros, “bearer.” So, though it had other uses, Lucifer is a term for the planet Venus, just as the Greek and the Hebrew are. (from Koinonia)

The biblical text of Isaiah 14.12-15 reads:
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star (KJV, ‘Lucifer’), son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. (ESV)​
 

JimB

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While this is popularly considered a reference to the Devil, most commentators see it as a reference to Babylon, the Day Star being a metaphor of the empire. The context of the passage is Israel’s taunt of Babylon, which would be brought to ruin by the Assyrians.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Did the planet Venus orchastrate music in heaven. Lucifer did

Did the planet Venus take a third of the angels in heaven when he fell? Lucifer did.

Is the planet Venus refered to as "him", lucifer is.

Does the planet veins speak? Lucifer does.

I could go on.
 
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Always in His Presence

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It's a metaphor, SP. The chapter is about the fall of the Empire of Babylon. You might try reading it. Just a suggestion. Anyhow, I think you're confusing Isaiah 14 with Ezekiel 28. :)

How about replying to the post instead of the poster. That sounds good.

I would also re commend providing the link to the website you cut and pasted this from for reference and discussion.

Just sayin ;)
 
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Lollerskates

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Lucifer is a poor translation from the Hebrew name "Heylel, meaning "shining, bright, fiery." It is the name of (most likely) an angel, having the angelic suffix "of God" (el.) It may not be the one we think of as (the) devil, it may just be another satan (adversary) of heaven. But, I dont believe it was the planet Venus. It is most likely related to a Seraphim angel class.

There were many fallen angel satans. The Satan is a unique principality.
 
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JimB

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Did the planet Venus orchastrate music in heaven. Lucifer did

Did the planet Venus take a third of the angels in heaven when he fell? Lucifer did.

Is the planet Venus refered to as "him", lucifer is.

Does the planet veins speak? Lucifer does.

I could go on.

How about replying to the post instead of the poster. That sounds good.

I would also re commend providing the link to the website you cut and pasted this from for reference and discussion.

Just sayin ;)
Okay. Although a simple reading of the context (Isa. 31.1-14.23) should prove the point.

I thought I did reply to your post. But, if that didn’t satisfy you, here we go again …

‘Lucifer’ is mentioned only once in Isaiah 14 and that only in the KJV, NKJV and other older English translations who used the Vulgate. It is a flawed translation of the word helel, which also occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible (see Strongs #1966); other translations translate helel as “light-bringer,” “daystar,” “morning star,” “shining one,” (all of which can be found by clicking [COLOR="Blue"]https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 14:12[/COLOR]). Here’s how the NIRV translates the Isa. 14.12, “King of Babylonia, you thought you were the bright morning star. But now you have fallen from heaven. You once brought nations down. But now you have been thrown down to the earth!” and the NCV follows suit, “King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven, even though you were as bright as the rising sun! In the past all the nations on earth bowed down before you, but now you have been cut down,” both making it clear who the subject of the verse is. At the time of this prophecy, the King of Babylon was the most powerful person on earth.

Did the planet Venus orchastrate (sic) music in heaven. Lucifer did.
Since ‘lucifer’ is found only in the KJV, et.al. versions of Isaiah 14 and it is the King of Tyre, who, in your reference for “orchestrating music in heaven” is found in Ezekiel 28.13 and only in the KJV, NKJV and other older English translations … who used the Vulgate). Modern translations completely omit the reference to musical instruments (the “tabrets and pipes”), calling them (“settings and mountings”). I will grant that Ezekiel 28 is a more arguable reference to Satan than the Isaiah 14 “Lucifer” reference, but the subject is still the King of Tyre.​

Did the planet Venus take a third of the angels in heaven when he fell? Lucifer did.
I am not sure where this “third of the angels” reference came from, probably Rev. 12.4, which is of course, metaphorical and open to debate: “His (the Great Red Dragon’s) tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.” Since “lucifer,” is a flawed translation of “helel” this reference in the Revelation has absolutely no reference to Isaiah 14. If you combine (albeit isogetically) Rev. 12.4 and Luke 10.18 with Rev. 12.4 you can come up with the idea of Satan falling from heaven and taking a third of the angels with him, but this is stretching the truth so thin any Bible student should be able to see through it.​

Is the planet Venus refered (sic) to as "him", lucifer is.
Metaphorically, yes. Depends, I guess, on your preferred translation.​

Does the planet veins (sic) speak? Lucifer does.
Metaphorically, yes.​

I could go on.
Please do.​

:)
 
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JimB

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And the link to this cut and paste.......

I know it's not your writing and you most certainly do not plagerize.
I posted the ref. in the OP. I got it from the Koinonia website – here:

http://www.koinoniablog.net/2014/07/hebrew-and-you-with-lee-m-fields-would-you-name-your-son-lucifer.html

It was written by Lee M. Fields, Chairman of the Department of Biblical Studies and Professor of Bible at Mid-Atlantic Christian University. Info here:

http://www.macuniversity.edu/academics/faculty-and-staff-directory/lee-m-fields

But I am wondering what difference it makes who wrote it? IMO, truth is truth wherever you find it. :)
 
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Always in His Presence

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Is ‘Lucifer’ the Planet Venus?


Third, the Latin. The exact Latin equivalent of the Greek Heosphoros is Lucifer. Luci comes from lux meaning “light” and fer is the same as the Greek phoros, “bearer.” So, though it had other uses, Lucifer is a term for the planet Venus, just as the Greek and the Hebrew are. (from Koinonia)

[/INDENT]

To the Reader: let's make the assumption that this author is correct. Then let's take his assumption that Lucifer is actually referencing a planet in our solar system. Let's put this assumption into the context of the scripture he himself posted:

The biblical text of Isaiah 14.12-15 reads:
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star (KJV, ‘Lucifer’), son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. (ESV)​


The writer wants you to believe (THE PLANET VENUS)

How you, (THE PLANET VENUS), are fallen from heaven, O Day Star (KJV, ‘Lucifer’), son of Dawn!

How you, (THE PLANET VENUS), are cut down to the ground,

you,(THE PLANET VENUS), who laid the nations low!

You, (THE PLANET VENUS), said in your heart, ‘I, (THE PLANET VENUS), will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God

I, (THE PLANET VENUS), will set my throne on high;

I, (THE PLANET VENUS), will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;

I, (THE PLANET VENUS) will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I, (THE PLANET VENUS), will make myself like the Most High.’

But you, (THE PLANET VENUS), are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. (ESV)​

That's a whole lot for a planet to do and say.

Second the actual author of the OP and the one who copied and pasted it has said, as a fact that Isa 14 is a metaphor.

Scripture is written as literal, prophetic, metaphor or prose. So let's look at the verses in context and see if in fact they are metaphor.

Read the entire chapter here

It's doesn't take a scholar to see that the chapter is NOT metaphor, but prophetic.

This is supported by a number of commentaries who show that the verses are prophetic, not metaphor

They are:

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Isa.14.4-Isa.14.23

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/asbury-bible-commentary/c-How-mighty-one-has-fallen

I think perhaps his reasoning is not from the second planet, but sounds more like something that would come from the seventh. Either way - I believe he missed it BIG time.​
 
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A

Andrea411

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Calvin said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."[69] Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.

Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems that this particular verse is what makes the KJO people go berserk.... so I'm thinking thats why JimB brought it up. From what I've read, most theologians agree this is not supposed to represent Satan. Lucifer is not Satan's name. Although satanists are more then happy to take it as the devil's name simply bc they like to irritate Christians.
Lucifer is now the word we use for Satan
 
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Always in His Presence

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Calvin said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."[69] Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.

Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems that this particular verse is what makes the KJO people go berserk.... so I'm thinking thats why JimB brought it up. From what I've read, most theologians agree this is not supposed to represent Satan. Lucifer is not Satan's name. Although satanists are more then happy to take it as the devil's name simply bc they like to irritate Christians.
Lucifer is now the word we use for Satan

This theologian, and the ones who were my mentors would respectfully disagree with you.

I do hold a Masters in Theology FYI. The devil is known in scripture by a number of names including:

1. Lucifer - Isa 14:12
2. Satan - used 56 time in the OT and directly referenced by Peter (1Pet 5:80 and Paul 1 Thes 2:18)
3. Devil - referring to Satan himself 35 times in the NT
4. Serpent - Gen 3:1-15 and 2 Cor 11:3
5. Dragon - Rev 20:2 "2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, "
6. Beelzebub of Beelzebul - Mt 10:25 and Mt 12:24
7. Belial - DT 13:13, Jgs 20:13
8. Tempter - 1 Thes 3:5
9. Wicked, evil or lawless one - 2 Thess 2:8, 1 Jn 5:19, 1 JN 2:13,14
10 Prince of this world - Jn 14:30, Jn 12:31, Jn 16:11
11. Prince of the power of the air - Eph 2:2, Eph 6:12
12. God of this world or age - 2 cor 4:4,
13: The deceiver - Rv 20:10
14. The Accuser - Rv 12:10
15. Angel of Light - 2 Cor 11:13-15
16. Murderer - Jn 8 :44
17. Father of Lies - JN 8:44 and Mt4:6
18. Roaring Lion - 1 Pet 5:8
19. Destroyer - Rv 9:11

In everyone of these 19 "names/descriptive references to the devil, not one is the second rock from the sun.

That's what I learned in my theology classes.
 
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JimB

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SP, You seem to be fixated on the word “Venus”. Venus (otherwise, depending on which translation you prefer, called the Morning Star, Daystar, Shining One, Shining Star, etc.) was used as a metaphor/symbol for the King of Babylon (according to Isaiah 13 & 14), who in this instance, Isaiah’s generation, was the brightest “star” of his time. FTR, Jesus Christ is also called “the Bright and Morning Star” (Rev. 22.16, which, of course, is not really a star, being the planet Venus, though it appeared to ancients as a star). To this day when I am up before dawn, I will on a clear day, say “Good Morning” to the Morning Star (i.e., Venus) because, for me, it symbolizes Jesus Christ, the precursor of the dawn. I know, it seems idolatrous, but for me Venus is a biblical symbol for Christ Jesus, and I am really praying to him.

The King of Babylon was not the Morning Star, even though, being the most prominent person of his time, he appeared to be. Since the word “lucifer” (Heb. helel) is used only once in older English translations of the Bible who used the Vulgate as a resource, and “Lucifer,” for some mysterious reason, has become a pseudonym/sobriquet for Satan. Isaiah is concerned with the fall of the Babylonian king to the Assyrians, an event which would occur soon after Isaiah’s prophecy. Hence, Lucifer, the Morning Star, is a reference to the King of Babylon, as a close (and unbiased) reading of the context will show. So, personally, I would not include Lucifer in your list of names for the Devil. Personally, I think Isaiah would be astounded that we now teach he was talking about the Devil. :)
 
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JimB

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Calvin said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."[69] Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.

Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems that this particular verse is what makes the KJO people go berserk.... so I'm thinking thats why JimB brought it up. From what I've read, most theologians agree this is not supposed to represent Satan. Lucifer is not Satan's name. Although satanists are more then happy to take it as the devil's name simply bc they like to irritate Christians.
Lucifer is now the word we use for Satan

:)

:thumbsup:



.
 
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Always in His Presence

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SP, You seem to be fixated on the word “Venus”.

I am endevoring to follow the forum rules and address the topic of the thread and not the poster.

The topic of the thread is

Is 'Lucifer' the planet Venus?

To address this question, fixation or focus would have to be on Lucifer and Venus the to focal points of the topic of the thread.

You asked as the topic if I believed the question that is the topic of this thread.

I've replied in the negative and then shown scripturally and using logic why I don't believe Isa is speaking of a planet. I then further provided information on the 19 names in scripture along with their scriptural references of the names of the devil in scripture. I furthermore showed the scripture is in fact prophetic and not a metaphor as claimed.

I'm not fixated on a word, simply doing the best I can to provide the readers as complete a reply as I can.

Now can we please go back to the topic of the thread which is not me. Thanks :wave:
 
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Lollerskates

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Calvin said: "The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance: for the context plainly shows these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians."[69] Luther also considered it a gross error to refer this verse to the devil.

Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems that this particular verse is what makes the KJO people go berserk.... so I'm thinking thats why JimB brought it up. From what I've read, most theologians agree this is not supposed to represent Satan. Lucifer is not Satan's name. Although satanists are more then happy to take it as the devil's name simply bc they like to irritate Christians.
Lucifer is now the word we use for Satan

The thing is that "satan" (Heb. 'satan') just means adversary. We wouldn't call Michael "Angel" as a proper name, because his name means much more than just angel. Likewise, The Satan - main accuser of brethren - has a proper name that highlights its entire history, function, purpose and possible future.

There are many satans: Baal, Ra, Enki, Enlil, Molech, Diana, Isis, Zeus, Odin, etc. They all misrepresent and antagonize the Most High - whether through active or passive means. So, a name is important. "Devil/Dragon" represents the grotesque transformation of a fallen Seraphim, whose brightness of glory is associated with the faded brightness of red (for rage and primal passion,) and breaths out and/or emits fire as the name Seraphim means "bright and fiery". The Devil/Dragon is a unique creature, though there are many of them likewise.

The word "Lucifer" is "Heylel," the name of a specific angel. It also means bright, shining and fiery (like a Seraphim.) It may be The Satan that led the assault on the throne of God, but in the book of Enoch, that angel goes by a different name. So, his Heylel may just be another who attempted, whose principality also influenced the hearts of men here on earth to substantiate his assault.
 
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JimB

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I am endevoring to follow the forum rules and address the topic of the thread and not the poster.

The topic of the thread is

Is 'Lucifer' the planet Venus?

To address this question, fixation or focus would have to be on Lucifer and Venus the to focal points of the topic of the thread.

You asked as the topic if I believed the question that is the topic of this thread.

I've replied in the negative and then shown scripturally and using logic why I don't believe Isa is speaking of a planet. I then further provided information on the 19 names in scripture along with their scriptural references of the names of the devil in scripture. I furthermore showed the scripture is in fact prophetic and not a metaphor as claimed.

I'm not fixated on a word, simply doing the best I can to provide the readers as complete a reply as I can.

Now can we please go back to the topic of the thread which is not me. Thanks :wave:
And I do appreciate your graciousness, SP, and I hope to answer you in kind. The word translated “lucifer” in the KJV/NKJV et.al. is in the original Hebrew, “helel,” the morning star (which is the planet Venus, today as it was 3000 years ago). Helel is used as a metaphor for the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14.12 just as it’s Greek counterpart is a symbol that refers to Jesus in Revelation 22.16. I hope that answers your question. :)
 
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Always in His Presence

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And I do appreciate your graciousness, SP, and I hope to answer you in kind. The word translated “lucifer” in the KJV/NKJV et.al. is in the original Hebrew, “helel,” the morning star (which is the planet Venus, today as it was 3000 years ago). Helel is used as a metaphor for the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14.12 just as it’s Greek counterpart is a symbol that refers to Jesus in Revelation 22.16. I hope that answers your question. :)

I did not ask a question for you to answer.

As for the reiterated quote above, I have already addressed it. While there is supposedly a connection in names, there is no connection in actions between the person of whom the prophetic scripture refers and the second planet from the sun.

The issue is that one side is addressing the scripture as a metaphor, which it is plainly not, and the other prophetically.

Until there is a meeting of the minds, there can be no con census.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I've heard similar theories about a number of astrological happenings in the past .

basically as the principle goes .

celestial bodies like the stars and planets and the sun do not have a consciousness per se. however, they do have a distinct electromagnetic signature. Our thoughts travel along an electromagnetic medium in our bodies much like the internet data travels along wires.

so basically, modify the medium of transmission (the electromagnetics) and then you may even modify the data being transmitted.

but is the electromagnetic signature of Venus what causes people to commit insane acts of evil inspired by a great flash of "light"?

i don't have such data, but it is all very interesting . if examined scientifically, of course.
 
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JimB

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I did not ask a question for you to answer.

As for the reiterated quote above, I have already addressed it. While there is supposedly a connection in names, there is no connection in actions between the person of whom the prophetic scripture refers and the second planet from the sun.

The issue is that one side is addressing the scripture as a metaphor, which it is plainly not, and the other prophetically.

Until there is a meeting of the minds, there can be no con census.
Okay.


.
 
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