Iron chariots?

[ranmaonehalf]

Why is god unable to drive out those that have iron chariots?





Judges 1:19 (King James Version)


19And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.




It seems very odd that the creator of the universe would have such a problem.
It is a property of the iron? Why couldnt god do what he wanted?
Am I reading this wrong?

 

[Chesterton]

Why is god unable to drive out those that have iron chariots?





Judges 1:19 (King James Version)


19And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.




It seems very odd that the creator of the universe would have such a problem.
It is a property of the iron? Why couldnt god do what he wanted?
Am I reading this wrong?

You read that as saying the Lord wanted the inhabitants of the valley driven out but couldn't do it? If that's what your asking then yes I think you're reading it wrong.

 

[Luminaire]

I think that's referring to Judah there. Judah and his guys couldn't drive out the guys in the valley, presumably that wasn't part of God's plan. He was only "with Judah" for the mountain bit.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

You read that as saying the Lord wanted the inhabitants of the valley driven out but couldn't do it? If that's what your asking then yes I think you're reading it wrong.

Even given that it is Judah God is with him.

What does this mean then?

Is that like your friends saying they are with you and then them running away when times get tough?

Do you have a source or a translation that is more clear?
Luminare, why do you say it was gods plan? It would seem to me that if Gods with him then his plan would be with him.

Hey im here for you man, unless you need actual help.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have had a look at the Hebrew and read it all in context, but it has not enlightened me much, other than they were in the territory belonging to the Pilistines (Gaza, Ashkelon and Ekron), which was not a territory promised to the people of Israel by the LORD. My thoughts on it are it is not saying God would not help them, rather he kept them from the harm of the chariots in the valley. Unless they had been down there and had a butt whipping. All this is purely seculative however. One thing it does not say (from my rendering of the hebrew) is God did not help them, it just says they were unable to take it not God was unable.

 

[Chesterton]

Even given that it is Judah God is with him.

What does this mean then?

You could imagine many possible answers, but as Future said, they'd all be speculation. Maybe God wanted them to remain in the valley; after all, He knows how the regional political stability might be affected for generations by a change in who held that valley. Or Maybe God didn't necessarily want them to remain in the valley, but simply allowed the outcome to happen of its own accord.

Saying "the Lord is with" somebody doesn't mean He's completely controlling human events as if humans were little chess pieces on a board. If you wanted to so believe, you could believe that the Lord was with the Allies in WWII, but although the Allies ultimately won the war, they still lost battles along the way

 

[Sketcher]

It doesn't say that God failed. If anything, it was Judah's faith that failed. What they should have done when the faced the iron chariots, which presented a unique challenge to them, was to turn to the Lord in faith, obey him, and drive out those in the valley. Instead, they gave up.

 

[ittarter]

It doesn't say that God failed. If anything, it was Judah's faith that failed. What they should have done when the faced the iron chariots, which presented a unique challenge to them, was to turn to the Lord in faith, obey him, and drive out those in the valley. Instead, they gave up.

This is one reading which, I think, is possible.

The other one has also been listed already -- the phrase "Yhwh was with Judah" denotes Judah's general victory, while there is a limitation necessary due to future historical developments in the geographical area.

We choose to interpret the passage by appealing to the precedent of Joshua 17:

vv.16-18 (ESV): The people of Joseph said, "The hill country is not enough for us. Yet all the Canaanites who dwell in the plain have chariots of iron, both those in Beth-shean and its villages and those in the Valley of Jezreel." Then Joshua said to the house of Joseph, to Ephraim and Manasseh, "You are a numerous people and have great power. You shall not have one allotment only, but the hill country shall be yours, for though it is a forest, you shall clear it and possess it to its farthest borders. For you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have chariots of iron, and though they are strong."

This particular promise from Joshua is directed, admittedly, to the much larger tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim. However, it appears to give weight to a dominant theme throughout Joshua and Judges with respect to the iron chariots: nothing is impossible when the Hebrews trust in Yhwh. The limited conquest reviewed in Judges 1 (esp. vv.27-36) also affirms the other side of the coin -- the Hebrews encounter the limitations of their military prowess when their trust expires.

Thus I agree especially with Twistedsketch.

 

[SadieOC]

It's not that he was incapable of doing it. It just wasn't part of his plan.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Nowhere does it say that his faith failed, im not even sure where that is relevant.
God being with him also seems meaningless. Why be so vague? It could easily have been written, "there faith was not strong enough so ....."
but thats not written.

Another reason I ask about it is as i recall the use of IRON else where seems odd.

Iron seems to have some special property for example...

Chapter 35 of Numbers which, in the New American Standard Bible, reads: "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Whats so special about iron?

 

[Sketcher]

Nowhere does it say that his faith failed, im not even sure where that is relevant.

It's the lesson of the chapter. The Israelites failed to exterminate the Canaanites. They could have done so if they were truly faithful and obedient. When Israel conquered, they did so by faith and obedience. When they failed, they were disobedient. What motivated the disobedience? Lack of faith or a lack of will. What often demotivates your will in the face of a challenge? Lack of faith.

 

[ittarter]

Nowhere does it say that his faith failed, im not even sure where that is relevant.
God being with him also seems meaningless. Why be so vague? It could easily have been written, "there faith was not strong enough so ....."
but thats not written.

Good literature often communicates implicitly rather than explicitly. Nowhere in Genesis does it say, Abraham is a man of great faith. But nevertheless you get that sense even if you limit yourself to the original story.

Chapter 35 of Numbers which, in the New American Standard Bible, reads: "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Whats so special about iron?

I don't think the two passages should be read in tandem. In Judges, "chariots of iron" is a symbol of the Canaanites' militaristic advantage, and their consequent need for Yhwh's intervention. In the passage you cited from Numbers, "an iron object" demonstrates judicial culpability. If you're so careless with a big metal pole that you manage to kill your coworker, you're so negligent that you deserve to be called a Murderer.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

I disagree, first if abraham is of great faith then how much faith do you need for god to help you out? It seems to me to be nothing but a cop out when someone says that the faith was not enough.

the amount of faith required seems to be pretty arbitrary.

As for iron objects, the passage is not about manslaughter but the use of iron objects to harm someone. As i recall there are othe passages that actually have to deal with accidental deaths. Are there passages that deal with big wooden bats? Small copper daggers? etc??

 

[ittarter]

I disagree, first if abraham is of great faith then how much faith do you need for god to help you out? It seems to me to be nothing but a cop out when someone says that the faith was not enough.

the amount of faith required seems to be pretty arbitrary.

Okay, forget Abraham. The point was merely that literature can communicate implicitly -- thus Judges does not need to mention the faith of Judah in order to speak on the matter. Another example: the biblical text says nothing specific about Joseph's personality, but when reading the story you get a definite picture of Joseph's personality. Are you going to disagree with my example here, too, or concede the point?

As for iron objects, the passage is not about manslaughter but the use of iron objects to harm someone. As i recall there are othe passages that actually have to deal with accidental deaths. Are there passages that deal with big wooden bats? Small copper daggers? etc??

As the following verses demonstrate by using identical phrases but using further of examples of "stone tools" and "wooden tools," the presence of iron is relatively insignificant. Therefore, as I was saying before, it is not prudent to use this verse to interpret the passage from Judges currently before us. Iron arises many, many times in the Bible, too many times to allow for a thematic connection between them, simply due to the presence of a certain metal.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

more aversion to iron in the bible

1 Kings 6

7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

My over all point is Iron seems to be avoided alot in the bible or cause some sort of problem, Iron chariots, iron tools, iron weapons.. etc..

 

[Sketcher]

I disagree, first if abraham is of great faith then how much faith do you need for god to help you out? It seems to me to be nothing but a cop out when someone says that the faith was not enough.

Abraham had greater faith than the men of Judah, as it turned out.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

so gods just going with the team that hs more faith? got any evidence to show you can even measure faith? is it simply that if things go the way you want your faith was enough and if not then it wasnt?

seriously what did god do?

pardon the short replies im between classes (im teaching engrish)

 

[Sketcher]

so gods just going with the team that hs more faith? got any evidence to show you can even measure faith? is it simply that if things go the way you want your faith was enough and if not then it wasnt?

seriously what did god do?

pardon the short replies im between classes (im teaching engrish)

God is the one who ultimately measures faith. We don't. But what we can tell about faith is that if you've got "enough" faith, you will obey all the way. That's what characterized Abraham's life for the most part. The road to total obedience is fraught with obstacles. Abraham and Sarah's old bodies would be one example. The iron chariots that Judah faced in combat would be another example. But, Abraham eventually prevailed in faith, while Judah did not, as we can see by the results.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

God is the one who ultimately measures faith. We don't. But what we can tell about faith is that if you've got "enough" faith, you will obey all the way. That's what characterized Abraham's life for the most part. The road to total obedience is fraught with obstacles. Abraham and Sarah's old bodies would be one example. The iron chariots that Judah faced in combat would be another example. But, Abraham eventually prevailed in faith, while Judah did not, as we can see by the results.

So if god measures then you can not make any judgment on their faith.

It seems like the only thing you are doing is trying to justify to yourself why things dont happen. (i didnt have enough faith.) thats a complete cop out answer and does nothing.

From what i can tell (on the subject of Iron) as I recall the israelites where a bronze age civilazation while the ones that they frequently lost against where an ironage civ and thats why they would lose. Nothing to do with god but simply technology.

Do you think if someone were to shoot you were with a bullet point blank and you had absolute faith that god would protect you then would you die?

 

[Chesterton]

pardon the short replies im between classes (im teaching engrish)

And you teach language? Is this stuff about the significance of iron supposed to be a joke, or do you seriously comprehend the text that way?