Invincible Ignorance

[manimal2878]

IN another thread it came up that Christian Nazis could go to heaven but the jews would burn in hell for their lack of belief.

Somebody responded that the nazis were not really xtian and would not go to heaven and that the jews could be saved because they had invincible ignorance.

I have never heard this term before is it some sort of doctrine i have never heard of? What is it and what does it mean?

 

[Adoniram]

I did a Google search on "invincible ignorance" and from what I can glean from it, it is a form of circular reasoning. Much like "You are wrong because I am right." On one site it was defined as "The arguer defends a position simply by refusing to acknowledge the force of the arguments supporting the opposing view." A Catholic site compares it to involuntary ignorance and says "Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or fact, exempts one from the penalty which may have been provided by positive legislation." I find this to be contrary to Biblical teaching. There are several sites pertaining to it. Do the search yourself for more details.

As for how it pertains to the discussion you had about Nazi's and Jews, it seems to me that if perchance a Nazi happened to be a Christian, he would indeed go to heaven. But do not lump all Nazi's together as being Christian, that would certainly be faulty reasoning, as would the statement that no Nazi's are Christian. On the other hand, whether a Jew goes to heaven or not also depends on his relationship to Jesus; does he believe or not. To make the blanket assumption that all Jews will go to heaven is wrong, as is the statement that no Jews will go to heaven.

One of the terms I saw in the search was "willful ignorance." My opinion about willful ignorance as it concerns salvation is that it is the same as outright rejection of Jesus. The Bible says that as one looks at all of the beautiful things of creation, they are without excuse. (Rom. 1:20)

Suffice to say that all people have enough information to make a choice concerning faith in God. Claiming "invincible ignorance" or "involuntary ignorance" will not be a valid excuse when they go to meet their Maker.

 

[Rafael]

God saves a remnant of both houses of Israel. Jesus was of the house of Judah who was promised the sceptre of power and Kingship, while the house of Israel, headed by the tribe of Ephraim, was the given the "firstborn" promise by God's covenant to Abraham. Who are those that are firstborn of God? Read Hebrews 12:23. God will restore that remnant of both houses to the land eventually.

Romans 11:11 Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves.
12 Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.

Ro.11:25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
26 And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel from all ungodliness.
27 And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins."

Isaiah 65:9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel and of Judah to possess my land. Those I choose will inherit it and serve me there.
10 For my people who have searched for me, the plain of Sharon will again be filled with flocks, and the valley of Achor will be a place to pasture herds.

Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hebrews 12:23 You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge of all people. And you have come to the spirits of the redeemed in heaven who have now been made perfect.
24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which graciously forgives instead of crying out for vengeance as the blood of Abel did.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jer 16:14,15 Therefore behold, days are coming, declares Yahweh, when it will no longer be said, 'as Yahweh lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' but, 'as Yahweh lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

 

[Adstar]

IN another thread it came up that Christian Nazis could go to heaven but the jews would burn in hell for their lack of belief.

Somebody responded that the nazis were not really xtian and would not go to heaven and that the jews could be saved because they had invincible ignorance.

I have never heard this term before is it some sort of doctrine i have never heard of? What is it and what does it mean?

A Nazi at the point of death could repent and accept Jesus as Messiah. That would mean at the point of death he would no longer be a nazi but a Christian. As far as i am concerned there is no such thing as a "nazi Christian" For a Christian knows that all men are created equal and there is no favoritism (race wise) with God.

As for invincible ignorance? I have never heard that expression before.

Sounds like a doctrine of excuse.


Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[WarEagle]

IN another thread it came up that Christian Nazis could go to heaven but the jews would burn in hell for their lack of belief.

Somebody responded that the nazis were not really xtian and would not go to heaven and that the jews could be saved because they had invincible ignorance.

I have never heard this term before is it some sort of doctrine i have never heard of? What is it and what does it mean?

"Invincible ignorance" is just one in a long list of Roman Catholic teachings that isn't Biblical. It's based on the idea that everyone is a member of the Roman Catholic church, they just don't know it yet.

In any event, it's true that a Nazi who repents of his sins and puts his faith in Christ will be saved, while someone who dies in his sins will be judged by God for his sins and punished in Hell.

People like to use Nazis because Nazis are really bad and there's an idea among non-Christians that some people are worse in God's estimation than others.

But the truth is that the Nazi, no matter how distasteful we may find what they stood for, is no more or less a law breaker than anyone else.

Apart from Jesus Christ, we're all sinners and all in danger of God's judgement.

But the big question isn't will Nazis go to Heaven or will Jews go to Hell, but will manimal go to Heaven or Hell?

How about it? If you were to die today and stand before God to be judged, would you go to Heaven or Hell?

 

[tapero]

IN another thread it came up that Christian Nazis could go to heaven but the jews would burn in hell for their lack of belief.

Somebody responded that the nazis were not really xtian and would not go to heaven and that the jews could be saved because they had invincible ignorance.

I have never heard this term before is it some sort of doctrine i have never heard of? What is it and what does it mean?

Hi,

Only God knows the hearts of any who have died regardless of the situation.

So, I won't speak to what I can not know and only God knows.

But salvation is through Christ alone, and those who believe and trust in him, are forgiven their sins and are saved.

Romans1 says all men are without excuse. Romans in another area, does goes into the topic of judgment some, and though for me is quite difficult to understand. But may come into play in the answer to your question.

But, it's all in God's hands.

Whatever anyone (we) tells you, it's God who is the judge of man and God is good, holy, pure, righteous, just, has wrath and will judge, and much much more attributes of God.

The place for many answers that we can have are in Christ, and throughout the bible, but Christ is the solid foundaton when we believe in Him, and while God doesn't answer all our questions in the bible, He gives us what we need to know.

Many have passed in many situations and only God knows a mans heart. Speculation about what we can't know, won't lead anywhere.

Generally what I find is that the created (that is all of us) sometimes feels we are kinder, more loving, more merciful than God, the creator and we are not, but such is a common stumbling block to man.

So, I would check into God for oneself and learn of Him, and then you if you wish, would learn more about God and then ask God for those answers, which he may or may not provide; I've never been given answers further than scripture but God is able to do anything; so I don't like to say He won't or can't, except for several things, I know God is not evil, does no evil, has no part in evil, and of course has no sin, as sin is wrongdoing against God.

blessings,
tapero

 

[Confess]

IN another thread it came up that Christian Nazis could go to heaven but the jews would burn in hell for their lack of belief.

Somebody responded that the nazis were not really xtian and would not go to heaven and that the jews could be saved because they had invincible ignorance.

I have never heard this term before is it some sort of doctrine i have never heard of? What is it and what does it mean?

Faith is what takes you to heaven, not a title of Nazi or Jew.

If what you practice is contrary to what the Bible teaches, then it is a pretty safe bet that your faith is that of something other then the one true God.

We only can tell if a person's faith is true by what they confess. So if someone were to tell you that a "Christian Nazi" would go to heaven while a "Jew" wouldn't, then they are just speaking to hear themself talk.

All we know is what a person confesses. If they confess that they believe that Jesus saved them from their sin, then most likely they are Christian.

To go beyond that is very unwise and pure opinion.

 

[mpok1519]

nah, I don't think God likes nazis.

lol

He might let them into Heaven, but who knows; mayeb they'll get rowdy and He'll kick em out.

 

[MelissaShae]

Only God knows who is going to heaven and who is not. For someone to get to heaven they have to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and repent their sins, anyone can do this and for all those who do, they will reach heaven.

God does not care about titles of people, he cares about what is in our hearts and souls, and he knows if we are followers or not.

 

[mpok1519]

I think its possible to get kicked out of Heaven. IF we still have free-will in Heaven, then yes, I'm sure even after one has been saved, it is just as easy to become forsaken.

 

[Aibrean]

A true Christian wouldn't kill another person (thou shalt not kill). We are all responsible for our actions.

That being said...it doesn't matter whether Jew or Gentile. There is only one way to salvation and faith without works is dead (practice what you preach). We have been given grace that surpasses our futile understanding and reaches to every nation, tribe, and tongue.

 

[heron]

Most of the talk has been about New Testament forgiveness and redemption, but God was clear about His standards in the Old Testament. Combine the two, and you get a clearer picture.

A phrase comes to mind, "worse than an infidel." Infidelity is unfaithfulness.

1Ti 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


This is what ruling the Nazis and oppressors come under:

Nu 21:29
Woe to you, O Moab! ...He has given his sons as fugitives, and his daughters into captivity, to an Amorite king, Sihon.

Isa 3
The expression of their faces bears witness against them, And they display their sin like Sodom; they do not even conceal it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves.Say to the righteous that it will go well with them, For they will eat the fruit of their actions.

Oh My people, those leading you cause you to go astray, and they swallow the way of your paths.Jehovah will enter into judgment with the elders of His people, and their kings. For you have eaten up the vineyard, the plunder of the poor is in your houses.

What do you mean that you crush My people, and grind the faces of the poor, says the Lord?


The Righteous:
Tsaddiyq 06662

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] just, lawful, righteous

1. just, righteous (in government)
2. just, right (in one's cause)
3. just, righteous (in conduct and character)
4. righteous (as justified and vindicated by God)
5. right, correct, lawful

[/FONT]
Here is a case where God was more concerned about stopping oppression than about spiritual belief. There are many other references like this, mostly referring to how we provide for the poor and treat others.

Zech 7

So says Jehovah of Hosts, saying, Judge true judgment, and practice kindness and pity, each man with his brother.

And do not oppress the widow, or the fatherless, the alien, or the poor. And do not devise evil in your heart, of a man against his brother.

But they refused to listen, and gave a stubborn shoulder, and they made their ears heavy from hearing.

And they made their heart adamant from hearing the Law and the Words which Jehovah of Hosts has sent by the former prophets through His Spirit. And great wrath was from Jehovah of Hosts.

I Sam 2:8

"He raises the poor from the dust,

He lifts the needy from the ash heap​

To make them sit with nobles,​

And inherit a seat of honor;​

For http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1sa+2&t=nas&sr=0#R60the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,​

And He set the world on them.


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