Let us see what you're actually saying and if it is what the bible says
Please help
Cliff2 said:
Please help
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Investigative Judgment
- Thread starter deu58
- Start date
Lets see if we can look at these objections and get a correct understanding of the judgement. We will call them as you have stated, one, two, and three.
# ONE
"If we as sda's believe in the Investigative Judgement, then judgement is happening as we speak, when Christ returns there is no judgement bar that we must stand before because the "judgement" has already happened. I mean how is it that we will face judgement (in the end) yet judgement be happening now? He is coming back to give out rewards or am I mistaken?"
The judgement of those who have ever known, believed in God began in 1844 as SDA's have always believed. There are different judgements that take place. When Christ comes back it will be a judgement that all will face that are alive. That is not the IJ. Christ will be coming with rewards for the righteous. That is eternal life. Christ cannot give out rewards if there has not been a judgement to decide who to give them to.
# TWO
"Two, when God forgives us and casts our sins into the depths of the sea, then there is nothing recorded on the heavenly DVDs regarding the "sins" we have committed because they have been erased. Thus, those sins aren't held against us because they have ceased to exist. So why would a "heavenly sanctuary" need cleasing if those sins have ceased to exist?"
This question has been raised many times to try and show that God'd record of sin has done away with the need of the IJ. When we go back and look at the way the Children of Israel recieved forgivensss we see that the person concerned did not recieve forgivness when the lamb was slain but when the blood was apllied and taken into the temple where the sin remained for one year. It was then placed upon the head of the scape goat (Satan) which was sent into the wilderness to die. For the sins to be placed on the scape goat they must still remain until that time happens. That is still future and will happen after the 1,000 years when the New Jerusalem will come down down from heaven and the wicked will be raised at the second resurrection.
# THREE
"Three, if Christ's righteousness has taken the place of our righteousness, the deeds of Christians are covered by the righteous deeds of Christ or are they? In effect Christ would be looking at His own work, if a person is in Christ and being transformed by His Spirit correct?"
Actually EGW says this perfectly, a quote from Steps to Christ helps us see this very clearly.
Steps to Christ, page 62, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."
We do not have to be afraid of the IJ at all because when our name comes up our sheet is as white as snow and not only that but
"Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."
That is good news for sinners.
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Our sins are not held in an escrow account in heaven waiting for final cleansing.... The old sacrificial system pointed to Christ the ultimate sacrifice. It was not to suggest that the same thing that happened here on earth happens in heaven. The analogy falls apart the moment Christ died and rose again....
The quote from Steps to Christ proves my point.... Christ righteousness covers ours so there is nothing on our record except His blood covering our sins, and His righteousness covering our righteousness... Given those facts, there is NOTHING to review. Likewise, Christ doesnt have to constantly remind God the Father that His sacrifice was complete... we have taken the sanctuary analogy too far in my opinion..... but that's just me....
The quote from Steps to Christ proves my point.... Christ righteousness covers ours so there is nothing on our record except His blood covering our sins, and His righteousness covering our righteousness... Given those facts, there is NOTHING to review. Likewise, Christ doesnt have to constantly remind God the Father that His sacrifice was complete... we have taken the sanctuary analogy too far in my opinion..... but that's just me....
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StormyOne said:
You have missed the whole point of what I have said.
EGW has it right in Steps to Christ about our sins.
But if one turns from God and that has happeend many times what then
happens to the sins that were forgiven?
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Cliff2 said:
That's what I thought too until I read this passage, "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1Pt. 4:17
The IJ began during the time of Peter, long before 1844.
And isn't it also true that we believe that the IJ was supposed to begin with the dead? Yet, Peter is stating that it began with living Christians.
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woobadooba said:
One must understand the prophecy concerning the IJ. Look at Daniel 8:14 which gives us a clue as to when it begins.
That prophecy endded in 1844, meaning that is when the IJ began with the house of God. It is true that the dead are judged first and then the living.
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Cliff2 said:
I understand the prophecy, or at least I thought I did.
But your interpretation of the prophecy can't be correct according to the verse I gave you, The IJ began during the time of Peter, and it clearly states that it began with them, the household of God.
Now were they dead or living at the time? Better yet, the language of Peter is inclusive, so was he dead or living when he said for the "time has come", not will come, but "has come" for judgment to "begin"(present tense)with the "household of God", not the dead, but the living?
I am not trying to shake you out of your faith. I too, am an SDA. What I am trying to do however, is awaken you.
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woobadooba said:
What you are saying is that there is no IJ and that is plain wrong.
It begins at the house of God after 1844.
Whatever makes you think it begins at the time of Peter.
With all the trouble we have had here with icons I suggest you change yours so you can continue to participate as an SDA.
Otherwise it makes it very difficult for you to debate/discuss issues here as only SDA's are allowed to by the rules of this Forum unles they have been changed while I was away for a week.
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No Cliff, that isn't what I'm saying, or said, so please refrain from making such false accusations.
Which one is it Cliff? I asked you when it began, and you said, "1844", but now you say "after 1844".
Which one is it Cliff, "at the time of" or "after" 1844?
Because Peter said, "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God..." 1Pt. 4:17
According to your version of the IJ, Peter is a liar.
Of course, the common icon tactic. Whenever someone says something that you don't want to hear, you use the icon tactic. Cliff, are you not open minded enough to dialogue with someone simply because they don't have the right icon?
What are you afraid of Cliff? Are you afraid to face the truth, that the IJ didn't begin in 1844, but during the time of Peter?
Ok cliff, how about this. Let's take this to the General Theology forum(where icons don't matter), shall we? And we can address the issue of 1Pt. 4:17, to see if it doesn't contradict your idea of when the IJ began. Let's do that, ok?
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woobadooba said:
The fact of the matter is that members who do not have the SDA icon are not allowed to debate here so it is for your advantage, not mine. That bis the rule that everyone has to follow here, made by the Mods of the Forum, not me.
Take that up with them.
When you have the appropiate icon on I shall continue the debate/talk with you.
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Woobad... interesting points you raise, and it would be great to discuss them except it has been my observation that this is an informational site more than a "let's discuss this" site. (IMO) Even if you have the correct icon there will be some skepticism that you are a "true" adventist. You will be asked if you really believe "in" the church or are you just trying to bash it....
So you are in a catch 22 my friend.... if you want you can PM and can provide some websites where you can discuss whatever without the icon rule....
Take care...
So you are in a catch 22 my friend.... if you want you can PM and can provide some websites where you can discuss whatever without the icon rule....
Take care...
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Cliff2 said:
If you are up to the challenge, we can discuss this, along with some other issues I have, in the General Theology section. Just let me know if you are up to it.
By the way, I am an SDA. But I refuse to get an SDA icon just so that I can discuss these matters with you. If you don't know how to answer my questions just be honest, and say you don't know. You don't realize how bad you look when you avoid answering legitimate questions simply because a person doesn't have the right icon.
That is just silly!
Again, if you are up to it, I would like to hear what you have to say on some issues I have, such as when the IJ really began, the wearing of Jewelry, and the nature of Christ.
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woobadooba said:
Actually I say to you and challenge you, put the SDA icon next to your name so you can discuss such issues here amongst other SDA's and stop trying to take issue outside to other Forums. That is what this has been set up for.
So that SDA's can discuss these issues amongst themselves.
If you do not want to obey the rules set up by I might add the Forum adim. then do not take issue with me on the matter. I have said take it up with them, not me.
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StormyOne said:
StormyOne
You like me started here without the SDA icon. I did not find it such a big issue to have it on so I think if we can abide by the rules of the Forum then I do not see why everyone cannot do the same.
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