Investigative Judgment

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Jon,

You said:

"The question most people follow up this view with is: does this imply that if a baby is born which manages to achieve what Jesus did (perfect obedience), would this being not need grace for salvation?"

What you have stated is all too true. However those who would ask that question are the same ones who tend to answer questions that they do not wish answer with logic tend to use the well known "yes, but . . . " answer. They also tend to like to bring up such questions as; "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

The logical answer to the question you have posed is two fold;

First: If any created being were able to gain salvation without the acceptance of the grace offered through Christ's sacrafice on the cross, it would nulify that grace,
and the salvation offered by it, for every other victim of sin.

Second: Questions such as the one that you have posed, only serve to create doubt in God's charecter and His divine plan to rescue mankind from sin. The only one who benefits from questions that lead to doubt of what God has told us, in His word the Bible, is Satan, and his attempts to cheat all of us out of salvation.

It would be well for all of us to think about the questions that we may ask before asking them and ask ourselves if the question or its answer will be of help or hindreance to anyone in gaining salvation.

Respectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Second: Questions such as the one that you have posed, only serve to create doubt in God's charecter and His divine plan to rescue mankind from sin. The only one who benefits from questions that lead to doubt of what God has told us, in His word the Bible, is Satan, and his attempts to cheat all of us out of salvation.

what?????

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Hi Jon,

You said:

What you have stated is all too true. However those who would ask that question are the same ones who tend to answer questions that they do not wish answer with logic tend to use the well known "yes, but . . . " answer. They also tend to like to bring up such questions as; "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

the is is an ad hominem attack. you ascribed motive to the person. it is a valid question on its own.

The logical answer to the question you have posed is two fold;

First: If any created being were able to gain salvation without the acceptance of the grace offered through Christ's sacrafice on the cross, it would nulify that grace,
and the salvation offered by it, for every other victim of sin.

Second: Questions such as the one that you have posed, only serve to create doubt in God's charecter and His divine plan to rescue mankind from sin. The only one who benefits from questions that lead to doubt of what God has told us, in His word the Bible, is Satan, and his attempts to cheat all of us out of salvation.

same as above ascribing motive.

It would be well for all of us to think about the questions that we may ask before asking them and ask ourselves if the question or its answer will be of help or hindreance to anyone in gaining salvation.

it is bogus. the same could be said for answering the questions. We are here to learn. questioning it part of the learning process. if you salvation is so fragile that it is dependant upon my answer then maybe you have the wrong faith. To state a believe in something is to invite questions and inquiry and examination. to refeuse inquiry,examination and questioning is to brainwash people. Truth can stand examination falsehood cannot.

 

[woobadooba]

"The question most people follow up this view with is: does this imply that if a baby is born which manages to achieve what Jesus did (perfect obedience), would this being not need grace for salvation?"

This question is contextually invalid, because any baby born into this world that is of the seed of man is subject to the sinful nature. Hence, even if that baby were to grow to live a full life of obedience to God, that person would still be dependent on God's grace for salvation.

Without God's grace all are subject to death. It makes no difference how good we are. We are still going to die unless God's grace intervenes within our lives to spare us from death.

"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." Rom. 5:1-2

 

[thecountrydoc]

No my young friend, my salvation is not fragil, nor is it dependant on you or your answers.

Your challenge to my statements only validates them. It is quite clear that you have never been involved in the practice of law or you would see the error of your logic.

Please take what I have said as constructive criticism. You obviously have the capablity for cognitive reasoning, please don't become one of the world's educated fools.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This question is contextually invalid, because any baby born into this world that is of the seed of man is subject to the sinful nature. Hence, even if that baby were to grow to live a full life of obedience to God, that person would still be dependent on God's grace for salvation.

Without God's grace all are subject to death. It makes no difference how good we are. We are still going to die unless God's grace intervenes within our lives to spare us from death.

"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." Rom. 5:1-2

very nice. Jesus said in John 3 that unless you are born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of heave. Why?? because ...." flesh give birth to flesh" this is the problem with taking a post lapse view of christ nature. the premise is that is Jesus could do it so can I. well that is a problem. if jesus we of flesh then he would have given birth to flesh. and so the thinking gose that if Jesus is flesh and I am flesh and if he over came in the flesh then I can over come in the flesh. This leads to dependance upon myself and looking to my performance. If I just try harder it will be ok. I will eventually get it right. that is legalism. being born of the spirt is where the power comes from to enter heaven.

 

[woobadooba]

very nice. Jesus said in John 3 that unless you are born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of heave. Why?? because ...." flesh give birth to flesh" this is the problem with taking a post lapse view of christ nature. the premise is that is Jesus could do it so can I. well that is a problem. if jesus we of flesh then he would have given birth to flesh. and so the thinking gose that if Jesus is flesh and I am flesh and if he over came in the flesh then I can over come in the flesh. This leads to dependance upon myself and looking to my performance. If I just try harder it will be ok. I will eventually get it right. that is legalism. being born of the spirt is where the power comes from to enter heaven.

Of course, this is not to suggest that we ought not to strive for perfection of character; rather, it is to say that God's grace can't be supplemented by our so-called good works. If it weren't for His grace we wouldn't even be capable of knowing what constitutes a good work, much less would we be able to perform one.

 

[djconklin]

Excellant response!

Paul wouldn't have said "I die daily" if there wasn't a need to do so. It doesn't save you, rather one must be saved to even know that we need to die daily.

 

[Sophia7]

Paul wouldn't have said "I die daily" if there wasn't a need to do so. It doesn't save you, rather one must be saved to even know that we need to die daily.

Why did Paul say, "I die daily"? Take a look at the context:

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. (NASB)
​

I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[djconklin]

What you have stated is all too true. However those who would ask that question are the same ones who tend to answer questions that they do not wish answer with logic tend to use the well known "yes, but . . . " answer. They also tend to like to bring up such questions as; "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Excellant observation!

First: If any created being were able to gain salvation without the acceptance of the grace offered through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, // it would nulify that grace, and the salvation offered by it, for every other victim of sin.

I agree with everything before my '//' that I inserted into your text. But, I think that what follows in the text is non sequitur with what went before, especially that after the 'and.' I'd suggest a different word than "nullify" to make that clause true.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Paul wouldn't have said "I die daily" if there wasn't a need to do so. It doesn't save you, rather one must be saved to even know that we need to die daily.

Why did Paul say, "I die daily"? Take a look at the context:

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?​

30 Why are we also in danger every hour?​

31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.​

32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. (NASB)​

​

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Think of what baptism means.

 

[freeindeed2]

What exactly is this? Some of my questions: For the Christian, what happens if he's not fully forgiven by the time of his death? How does he receive full forgiveness? Does he have assurance of this in this life? There may be other queries depending on the responses. Thanks in advance for any information.

How is it that Sovereign, All-knowing God, who knit us together in the womb, and knows even the number of hairs on our heads has to 'investigate' anything (He knows ALL things!)? Why do you suppose it would take an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all-knowing God 160+ years to attempt to sort out who's lost and who's saved? Doesn't anyone else find that a bit silly?

 

[Your Neighbor]

Judgment Parallels
Prophecies describing "investigative judgment" in the last days
Who says believers won't be involved in this?

COPY & PASTE, then PRINT & SAVE

Matt. 25:1-13
Issue of Investigation: Need for extra oil.
Point of Division: Separation at time of bridegrooms coming - go out to meet Him. Based on having oil.
Classes separated: Wise and foolish virgins.
Results of Separation: Wise go into the marriage; the foolish are shut out forever.

Matt. 25:14-30
Means of Investigation: Use of the talents.
Point of Division: Time of giving account.
Classes separated: Faithful and unfaithful servants.
Results of Separation: Entering the joy of thy Lord, or being cast into outer darkness.

Matt. 25:31-46
Means of Investigation: Course of action pursued in life.
Point of Division: Coming of the King.
Classes separated: Sheep and goats.
Results of Separation: Everlasting punishment or life eternal.

Matt. 22:1-14
Means of Investigation: Invitation, and inspection of guests
Point of Division: Separation first based on response to invitation. Second separation based on having on a wedding garment.
Classes separated: First those who rejected the invitation; second, those who had not the wedding garment.
Results of Separation: Bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness.

Matt. 13:24-30 (37-43)
Means of Investigation: Gathering of tares, then the wheat. Separation based on being a wheat or a tare.
Point of Division: Harvest.
Classes separated: Wheat and tares.
Results of Separation: Tares bound into bundles to be burned; wheat gathered into barn.

Matt. 13:47-50
Means of Investigation: Examining for good and bad.
Point of Division: Separation at gathering in to the shore of the net.
Classes separated: Based on good or bad.
Results of Separation: Good put into vessels; bad cast away.

Matt. 7:24-27 (Lk. 6:46-49)
Means of Investigation: Foundation examined by storm of rain, flood, and wind.
Point of Division: Distinction between two houses at time of storm based on different foundations.
Classes separated: House on sand; house on the rock.
Results of Separation: House on sand had a great fall.

Matt. 7:13,14
Means of Investigation: Straitness and narrowness.
Point of Division: Separation at the gate.
Classes separated: Those who find the narrow way.
Results of Separation: Broad gate leads to destruction.

Mark 13:34-37
Means of Investigation: Admonition to be prepared for the coming of the Master who is on a journey. Warning against sleeping. Watch for His coming.
Point of Division: Return of the master.
Classes separated: Those who are sleeping and those who are watching.
Results of Separation:

Luke 12:35-48
Means of Investigation: Preparation and expectation of the Master's return.
Point of Division: The arrival of the Master when He knocks.
Classes separated: Separation between faithful and unfaithful.
Results of Separation: Wicked servant cut asunder. Commendation of those who are ready when the Master comes.

Luke 14:16-24
Means of Investigation: Separation based on heeding invitation.
Point of Division: Made at time of supper.
Classes separated: Those who neglected the invitation, and those who accepted it.
Results of Separation: None of those first invited were to taste of the supper.

Rev. 14:6-14
Means of Investigation: Rejecting or embracing the messages.
Point of Division: Hearing the message; and worship of the beast and his image.
Classes separated: Separation between those who heed each message, and finally receive either the mark or the seal.
Results of Separation: Tormented in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Matt. 25:1-13
Issue of Investigation: Need for extra oil.
No Investigation made, they either had oil and lite lamps or they did not.

Matt. 25:14-30
Means of Investigation: Use of the talents.
Investigation takes place after master returns not before


Matt. 25:31-46
Means of Investigation: Course of action pursued in life.
Again separation of sheep and goats done at last when:
(Mat 25:31-32 NIV) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Well you get the idea none of those verses teach or even parallel the Investigative Judgment. This is why many in the Adventist church have greatly modified or abandoned belief in the Investigative Judgment.

 

[djconklin]

Judgment Parallels
Prophecies describing "investigative judgment" in the last days
Who says believers won't be involved in this?

COPY & PASTE, then PRINT & SAVE

Matt. 25:1-13
Issue of Investigation: Need for extra oil.
Point of Division: Separation at time of bridegrooms coming - go out to meet Him. Based on having oil.
Classes separated: Wise and foolish virgins.
Results of Separation: Wise go into the marriage; the foolish are shut out forever.

Matt. 25:14-30
Means of Investigation: Use of the talents.
Point of Division: Time of giving account.
Classes separated: Faithful and unfaithful servants.
Results of Separation: Entering the joy of thy Lord, or being cast into outer darkness.

Matt. 25:31-46
Means of Investigation: Course of action pursued in life.
Point of Division: Coming of the King.
Classes separated: Sheep and goats.
Results of Separation: Everlasting punishment or life eternal.

Matt. 22:1-14
Means of Investigation: Invitation, and inspection of guests
Point of Division: Separation first based on response to invitation. Second separation based on having on a wedding garment.
Classes separated: First those who rejected the invitation; second, those who had not the wedding garment.
Results of Separation: Bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness.

Matt. 13:24-30 (37-43)
Means of Investigation: Gathering of tares, then the wheat. Separation based on being a wheat or a tare.
Point of Division: Harvest.
Classes separated: Wheat and tares.
Results of Separation: Tares bound into bundles to be burned; wheat gathered into barn.

Matt. 13:47-50
Means of Investigation: Examining for good and bad.
Point of Division: Separation at gathering in to the shore of the net.
Classes separated: Based on good or bad.
Results of Separation: Good put into vessels; bad cast away.

Matt. 7:24-27 (Lk. 6:46-49)
Means of Investigation: Foundation examined by storm of rain, flood, and wind.
Point of Division: Distinction between two houses at time of storm based on different foundations.
Classes separated: House on sand; house on the rock.
Results of Separation: House on sand had a great fall.

Matt. 7:13,14
Means of Investigation: Straitness and narrowness.
Point of Division: Separation at the gate.
Classes separated: Those who find the narrow way.
Results of Separation: Broad gate leads to destruction.

Mark 13:34-37
Means of Investigation: Admonition to be prepared for the coming of the Master who is on a journey. Warning against sleeping. Watch for His coming.
Point of Division: Return of the master.
Classes separated: Those who are sleeping and those who are watching.
Results of Separation:

Luke 12:35-48
Means of Investigation: Preparation and expectation of the Master's return.
Point of Division: The arrival of the Master when He knocks.
Classes separated: Separation between faithful and unfaithful.
Results of Separation: Wicked servant cut asunder. Commendation of those who are ready when the Master comes.

Luke 14:16-24
Means of Investigation: Separation based on heeding invitation.
Point of Division: Made at time of supper.
Classes separated: Those who neglected the invitation, and those who accepted it.
Results of Separation: None of those first invited were to taste of the supper.

Rev. 14:6-14
Means of Investigation: Rejecting or embracing the messages.
Point of Division: Hearing the message; and worship of the beast and his image.
Classes separated: Separation between those who heed each message, and finally receive either the mark or the seal.
Results of Separation: Tormented in the presence of the Lamb.

Thanks! That was great!

And I followed your advice and saved it--you never know when it will come in handy!

 

[djconklin]

This is why many in the Adventist church have greatly modified or abandoned belief in the Investigative Judgment.

"many"?!? Where'd you get the statistical proof to back that up?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I need statistical proof to say many? Get real.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hey fellows,

Requesting statistical proof for a general observation is like asking for a weather report to find out if its raining after the dog comes in driping wet with muddy feet. Even if you get it, it isn't going to matter, and I doubt that anyone would belive it.

Respectfuly,
Doc

 

[djconklin]

I need statistical proof to say many? Get real.

Yes, some would be more like it. Now, if you are looking only at those who have left the fold, then it "might" (note the qualifier) might be true.

 

[djconklin]

Requesting statistical proof for a general observation is like asking for a weather report to find out if its raining after the dog comes in driping wet with muddy feet. Even if you get it, it isn't going to matter, and I doubt that anyone would belive it.

If the dog came in dripping wet and with muddy paws it could have found a puddle. That is no proof that it is actually raining outside.

Propaganda frequently (note the precise qualifier) depends on one's careful choice of misleading modifiers.

On Wall Street they (the smart money) advise that if you have a friend who advises you to buy and then the stock tanks, and/or sell and then it takes off and they are consistently wrong then you should hang onto them and do the exact opposite.