Interracial Relationships

[FaithLikeARock]

5 Dark am I, yet lovely,
O daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
like the tent curtains of Solomon.


Song of Songs 1:5


The woman in Song of Songs is clear that her skin is dark which in the time Song of Songs was written was not viewed as attractive. Yet the man in the passage, Solomon, who based on this passage we can assume is white, loves her passionately and greatly compliments her appearance throughout the entire book.

Why is it that I've met so many Christians that have a problem with interracial marriage? And yes, it's always been a Christian who thinks "God made races separate for a reason". On top of this, Jesus many times has conversations with "Gentiles" of the time which was viewed as a travesty. I wouldn't call this racism as it isn't putting down any race, it's simply saying they should intermingle or have intimate relationships with each. But I think this is restricting.

Please, this thread isn't about homosexuality. Keep it that way.

 

[TheManeki]

Living in the southeastern US, I've come across many old-timers who believe that interracial marriage is immoral. They like to quote 2 Corinthians 6:14 -- the verse about unequal yoking -- as proof that interracial marriage is an abomination in God's eyes. Even though the passage really appears to refer to marriages between Christians and non-Christians, this appears to have been a popular interpretation through the first half of the 20th century.

I also remember voting in South Carolina in 1998 in a referendum to amend the state constitution. Back in 1885 the state constitution was amended to prohibit "marriage of a white person with a Negro or mulatto or a person who shall have one-eighth or more of Negro blood" -- perhaps way back then it was supposed to defend marriage and protect family values, or something similar.

Even though the ban hadn't been enforced since the 1960s, it stayed in the constitution, a relic of ignorance. The 1998 referendum to formally allow interracial marriage was a symbolic act, but even then about 20% of the voters still voted against it. I remember those opposed to interracial marriage calling into local talk shows before the referendum using the 2 Corinthians verse and Noah's cursing of Canaan in Genesis 9 to support their twisted logic. I guess if you want to believe something badly enough, you will find justification somewhere.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

I have heard some people express concerns over the dilution of identity or that it would cause trouble for their children for being different. I personally think identity has more to do with culture than skin color.

In a really twisted sense, their argument has merit. "The world today discriminates against children of mixed heritage, therefore, for the sake of the children, there shouldn't be any."

Some disapprove on the basis that good men or women of such and such race are few and so the mixing is like 'stealing.' Here I wonder why that should be any one's concern besides the couple.

 

[Verv]

[bible]2 Corinthians 6:14[/bible]

(Kign James Version)

KJV is archaic and everybody knows that the reference to lightness and darkness applies to believers who walk int he Light and those who are not with God.

NIV translates it as:

Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

People of any race can be Christians o this passage is utterly irrelevant to the question of interracial marriage.

In my life I have never met a devout Christian who has ever preached against interracial marriage. That strikes me as profoundly unchristian and associating Christianity with racism is one of the most weird things ever.

One of the first people the Apostles converted as an Ethiopian; the religion spread without regard throughout the ME, North Africa and Europe. St. Augustine definitely wouldn't have lived up to the standards of these foolish Southern American racists yet he is one of the most profound thinkers and men in Christianity.

Anyone who tries to associate racism with Christianity is so wrong.

The Christian Faith, today, is far stronger in places that are not white. I have not met so many of the Faithful as my time here in Korea.

 

[TheManeki]

You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, it does not change the fact that for a time racist interpretations of the Bible were widely held among white Christians.

We must learn from this mistake and atone for it by doing what we can to make sure this kind of thing never happens again.

 

[WarEagle]

Why is it that I've met so many Christians that have a problem with interracial marriage? And yes, it's always been a Christian who thinks "God made races separate for a reason".

I don't know any Christians who believe this. If they do, then they've probably fallen under some false teaching.

Many people like to point to the account of Moses and his wife as an example of God's disapproval of racism.

Although racism isn't the point of the account, it does figure prominently into it and I would think that, if God were going to say something against interracial marriages, He would have taken advantage of that opportunity.

 

[gengwall]

I don't know any Christians who believe this. If they do, then they've probably fallen under some false teaching.

Many people like to point to the account of Moses and his wife as an example of God's disapproval of racism.

Although racism isn't the point of the account, it does figure prominently into it and I would think that, if God were going to say something against interracial marriages, He would have taken advantage of that opportunity.

Oh, I still know some.

For the record, Solomon was not "white", he was middle eastern (obviously, Jewish) which would be anywhere from olive to very dark skin. And the maid was not dark because of race but because she worked out in the sun all day (she was very tan - read the next verse). And she was not considered unattractive as the rest of the poem (and even the quoted verse) clearly shows.

Anyway, that is hardly the point. I have heard arguments that both Adam and Eve or at least Eve were black, and that Mary, the mother of Jesus, had black (i.e. African) heritage. The claims about Adam and Eve are the more tennable as even genetic studies point to a more African genetic base for the emergent homo sapiens. The claims about Mary have been fairly well refuted (Ruth was not a Moabite as they were all dead, she simply was from the historical land of the Moabites). There were other non-Jews in Jesus' lineage (Rahab, and maybe Bathsheba) but none African, as far as I know.

That doesn't mean that inter-racial marriage never took in place Jewish culture. Certainly it did, sometimes with bad results (Solomon) and sometimes good (Moses - I don't recall God disapproving in any way).

The New Testament message is certainly one of racial integration and harmony - "There is no Jew nor Greek...for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

 

[keith99]

Living in the southeastern US, I've come across many old-timers who believe that interracial marriage is immoral. They like to quote 2 Corinthians 6:14 -- the verse about unequal yoking -- as proof that interracial marriage is an abomination in God's eyes. Even though the passage really appears to refer to marriages between Christians and non-Christians, this appears to have been a popular interpretation through the first half of the 20th century.

The verse does NOT refer to marriage at all. It is one of Pauls more biting rants about those who argued that one had first become a Jew to them become a Christian. I've also heard this verse used to defend the practice of doing business only with other Christians. Both fall apart on any reasonabl erading of the verse and entire book. If I recall correctly the entire book never uses the word 'woman' and uses man only in ht esense where it means human, not exclusively male. If this were about marriage one would expect at least indirect reference to that institution, there is none.

 

[keith99]

[bible] St. Augustine definitely wouldn't have lived up to the standards of these foolish Southern American racists yet he is one of the most profound thinkers and men in Christianity.

Augustine, son of Monica! Monica, who was also a saint an dmarried to an unbeliever!! Guess he fails with some on that count also!

 

[TheManeki]

The verse does NOT refer to marriage at all. It is one of Pauls more biting rants about those who argued that one had first become a Jew to them become a Christian. I've also heard this verse used to defend the practice of doing business only with other Christians. Both fall apart on any reasonabl erading of the verse and entire book. If I recall correctly the entire book never uses the word 'woman' and uses man only in ht esense where it means human, not exclusively male. If this were about marriage one would expect at least indirect reference to that institution, there is none.

You are absolutely correct, but that never stopped the bigots from trying to use it to their ends. I'm more familiar with the religious justification for racism in the southeastern US; what's it like in the UK?

 

[LittleNipper]

I have no probem with a white/black marriage, if and only if it developed as the natural result of friendly interaction. If one says to himself, I'm going to get me a mate from such and such a race because they are so much better, smarter, prettier, it makes me seem important, or it will upset society/parents; then that person is doing it for all the wrong reasons. The reality is that birds of a feather do tend to hang together, and that is generally where they find that special someone...

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Oh, I still know some.

For the record, Solomon was not "white", he was middle eastern (obviously, Jewish) which would be anywhere from olive to very dark skin. And the maid was not dark because of race but because she worked out in the sun all day (she was very tan - read the next verse). And she was not considered unattractive as the rest of the poem (and even the quoted verse) clearly shows.

Anyway, that is hardly the point. I have heard arguments that both Adam and Eve or at least Eve were black, and that Mary, the mother of Jesus, had black (i.e. African) heritage. The claims about Adam and Eve are the more tennable as even genetic studies point to a more African genetic base for the emergent homo sapiens. The claims about Mary have been fairly well refuted (Ruth was not a Moabite as they were all dead, she simply was from the historical land of the Moabites). There were other non-Jews in Jesus' lineage (Rahab, and maybe Bathsheba) but none African, as far as I know.

That doesn't mean that inter-racial marriage never took in place Jewish culture. Certainly it did, sometimes with bad results (Solomon) and sometimes good (Moses - I don't recall God disapproving in any way).

The New Testament message is certainly one of racial integration and harmony - "There is no Jew nor Greek...for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

Society wise, yes she was. That was a part of the culture. Also notice how the other girls were called fair skinned? It doesn't mean they're dark with fair skin, they were white. Races didn't become dark overnight, that skin color develops along with their culture because of the region they live in.

 

[beechy]

I have no probem with a white/black marriage, if and only if it developed as the natural result of friendly interaction.

Does this statement apply to white/black marriages only, or to all marriages?

 

[gengwall]

Society wise, yes she was. That was a part of the culture. Also notice how the other girls were called fair skinned? It doesn't mean they're dark with fair skin, they were white. Races didn't become dark overnight, that skin color develops along with their culture because of the region they live in.

And what region exactly is it you think she lived in that her skin was "culturally developed" to be darker than the "other girls"? SOS 1:6 clearly states that her skin is dark because of being in the sun: "Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun..." It then explains why she is out in the sun so much" "...My mother's sons were angry with me and made me take care of the vineyards;..."

I am really not sure what you are getting at. Most people take the term "black" in the context of inter-racial marriage to mean of African descent and "white" to mean of European (and mostly northern european) descent. Neither of the protagonists in Song of Solomon are from these areas. They are both Jewish and come from the same general Middle Eastern area (and lived, if they are real, most likely very close to one another). The ONLY reason her skin may be darker than his is because she has a dark tan. The text is explicit on that.

As far as her attractiveness in the eyes of the culture goes, you will have to explain why, if the "other girls" would have considered her unattractive because of her dark skin, that they call her "most beautiful of women" in several verses (1:8, 5:9, 6:1)

 

[FaithLikeARock]

And what region exactly is it you think she lived in that her skin was "culturally developed" to be darker than the "other girls"? SOS 1:6 clearly states that her skin is dark because of being in the sun: "Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun..." It then explains why she is out in the sun so much" "...My mother's sons were angry with me and made me take care of the vineyards;..."

I am really not sure what you are getting at. Most people take the term "black" in the context of inter-racial marriage to mean of African descent and "white" to mean of European (and mostly northern european) descent. Neither of the protagonists in Song of Solomon are from these areas. They are both Jewish and come from the same general Middle Eastern area (and lived, if they are real, most likely very close to one another). The ONLY reason her skin may be darker than his is because she has a dark tan. The text is explicit on that.

How she got the skin doesn't matter since the girls she was talking about probably don't actually know that. It was dark; that's the point.

 

[gengwall]

How she got the skin doesn't matter since the girls she was talking about probably don't actually know that. It was dark; that's the point.

But your thread is about inter-racial marriage and the maid in SOS is not of a different race. You are trying to turn the love affair into an inter-racial marriage based soley on someone who didn't use enough spf 40. The whole premise of using SOS to create the conflict is wrong.

And BTW - the people she is talking to in vs. 5 and 6 are the very same "other girls. She is in the harem of Solomon talking about her beloved to the other women. So, yes, they did know how her skin got so dark.

 

[KarateCowboy]

In a really twisted sense, their argument has merit. "The world today discriminates against children of mixed heritage, therefore, for the sake of the children, there shouldn't be any."

Being of mixed human and elven blood, I know this story all too well. My pointed ears had me fighting off the more muscular human kids as a child, and my beard marks me as a mutt in the Quenya society, where many will not even talk to me. Even worse is trying to find love. Because of my increased longevity, any lover so accepting among the human race would wither before me like a flower over the years, while I remain young. My own children, being even more human, would do the same. Pain would be my path. Needless to say, I would be the same for an elven maiden. However that would not even happen, for the elves are even less accepting than the humans. If, however, it did happen, she would bear such suffering among our . . . her people, not mine . . . that I would not ask any elfmaid so kind to lower herself to my level.

My story testifies to the sick and bitter truth of that statement . . .

 

[jayem]

I thought that the Babel legend was used as the Bibical justification for racial segregation in general. God had separated the nations of the world, so any kind of commingling of the races--especially marriage--would be thwarting God's will.

(And it's also my understanding that Noah's cursing of his son Ham--who was supposedly the ancestor of Africans--is the reason why slavery and a subordinate social status was rationalized for Black people.)

But I'll defer to those more Biblically knowledgeable.

 

[TheManeki]

I'm not much of a fan of the Southern Baptist denomination of Christianity -- either because of, or in spite of, being raised in it -- but I do applaud the apology the Southern Baptist Convention issued in 1995 regarding its own racist background.

 

[keith99]

And what region exactly is it you think she lived in that her skin was "culturally developed" to be darker than the "other girls"? SOS 1:6 clearly states that her skin is dark because of being in the sun: "Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun..." It then explains why she is out in the sun so much" "...My mother's sons were angry with me and made me take care of the vineyards;..."

I am really not sure what you are getting at. Most people take the term "black" in the context of inter-racial marriage to mean of African descent and "white" to mean of European (and mostly northern european) descent. Neither of the protagonists in Song of Solomon are from these areas. They are both Jewish and come from the same general Middle Eastern area (and lived, if they are real, most likely very close to one another). The ONLY reason her skin may be darker than his is because she has a dark tan. The text is explicit on that.

As far as her attractiveness in the eyes of the culture goes, you will have to explain why, if the "other girls" would have considered her unattractive because of her dark skin, that they call her "most beautiful of women" in several verses (1:8, 5:9, 6:1)

Thanks for the full clear exposition. I'll try to remember that yuo are one who actually knows Scripture.

I'd like to add one point. In most cultures there develop things considered part of beauty, especially feminine beauty, that go with having money and avoiding work. Fair white skin was one such, until the factory age where the working classes were indoors, then a nice even tan took over. Fingernails, polished and unbroken, bound feet and even extra weight were all such things at various times, always correlating with the better off being able to have them and the less well off not.