International Church of Christ

[LilJenny45]

Hello! I was recommended to post this here by another poster in the non-denom forums.
I had a question about what, if anything, people knew about the International Church of Christ? I guess it's an offshoot of the Churches of Christ denom? Basically, I'm looking to get a feel for what experiences people have had with them. I attended a couple services after being invited by a friend, and while everyone is super nice, there is a certain air of almost cultishness that I picked up.

 

[stavros388]

Seriously, my experience with ICOC was one of the creepiest experiences ever. They wanted me to break up with my girlfriend at the time (now my wife) and live with them. The founder Kip McKean was a lying, money-mongering, hypocritical power freak. Maybe they have changed a bit, but when I spent a few weeks with them 10 or so years ago, they manipulated the Bible to their own ends. Their church leaders were rich and the young people who were naive enough to remain in the church were bullied into giving up their money and freedom using fear and guilt tactics. When I "broke out", I found tons of testimonies online of people who felt that they had essentially been spiritually abused by this manipulative organization. Stay away, for the love of God. Attend an Orthodox liturgy instead!

BTW, I can share more of my experience with you regarding this "church", if you are interested. Feel free to PM me.

 

[LilJenny45]

Thank you for your response!
Everybody who has experiences with them seems to stem from ten or more years ago, but I can't seem to find anybody who has had a recent experience. I'd like to get a current perspective, since I heard they made major reforms after splitting with Kip McKean. But even doing google searches, nobody has much to say about them after 2003.

 

[stavros388]

Well, it wasn't just Kip. The whole "church" has been built up around its contrived discipling program, which is basically top-down manipulation. The people at the top know more than the people at the bottom. This is not to say there aren't good people that attend ICOC. There surely are, and were when I was involved with them. I don't know what kind of reforms you speak of, but I would personally not settle for a church that has been built from the ground up on deception, secrecy, manipulation, and hypocrisy... no matter how "reformed" they appear to be now. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

 

[DerSchweik]

Jenny, there is a forum (not here, unfortunately) that is specifically devoted to ICC/ICOC issues. If you're interested, PM me and I can give you the link.

My wife and I left the movement some 25 years ago, just as the Boston Movement was getting traction and the first of the real abuses were becoming patently evident. Because we had gotten involved as much as we did (we were members of a church planting) and because we have so many friends still in/out of the various outgrowths of the movement, we've kept in regular touch and have been studying the issues ever since.

In brief, the movement grew out of a discipling ministry in Gainesville, FL - led by a man named Chuck Lucas. Kip McKean was his disciple and would go on to take the principles Lucas was teaching to their logical extreme.

Kip's extraordinary gifts (some godly, some not) enabled him to take the lead in the movement and he took the reins with a relish and enthusiasm we don't often see in this world. Sadly, he went in the wrong direction. For about 20 years, his movement grew significantly and expanded worldwide. But they were losing millions along the way. Someone once quipped that "the Christian army is the only army in the world that leaves its weak and wounded behind" - and in Kip's case, he practically made that gospel.

The abuses and damage became so egregious that after a letter written by Henry Kriek, Kip's house of cards crashed and he was ousted from the movement. There were (and still are, I believe) allegations of financial fraud and abuse, among so many others.

Unrepentant, he started his own church in Portland, OR. Today, he's back re-planting churches as the ICC (International Christian Church), going back to many of the same cities he'd seen similar success before, reaching out to old ICOC members.

His mantra today is "being sold out," which is fitting I suppose. As unrepentant than ever, he's boldly taking his version of "the gospel" to new levels of legalism.

In the wake of Henry Kriek's letter, many of the ICOC churches have changed their ways - some more than others, some not so much. Kip's damage to the church has been unparalleled, imho. It's sad, but God is ever faithful.

Sadly, it's changed many of the normal churches of Christ in adverse ways too as they recoil from Kip's teachings and abuses.

But again, God is ever faithful. Jesus is ever faithful. The gospel is still "good news" for a lost world and just as needed as ever.

If you're involved with the ICC or ICOC, I urge you to take a strong - INDEPENDENT look at what they're teaching, esp. w/r to discipling. I'm all for discipling/mentoring - it's a biblical concept; but it needs to be done right. As with anything good and decent, satan has his ways of corrupting things so we need to be ever vigilant.

God bless,

In Him,

 

[JDIBe]

Nm

 

[DerSchweik]

Thank you for your response!
Everybody who has experiences with them seems to stem from ten or more years ago, but I can't seem to find anybody who has had a recent experience. I'd like to get a current perspective, since I heard they made major reforms after splitting with Kip McKean. But even doing google searches, nobody has much to say about them after 2003.

I can give you this website: REVEAL: Leaving the International Churches of Christ (ICC) (ICOC)

There is a wealth of resources there about the ICOC/ICC, including updates about the latest goings-on of the ICC.

 

[ICOCguy]

Hi Jenny,

I am a current member of the ICOC.

I would first be weary of Stravos( who admitted he was only there a few weeks so much of his fact is from ex members who we do not know are being honest or dishonest) and anyone else who quickly labels any group a cult. The Pharisees labelled Jesus a cult leader, and we know that it is incorrect. People wrongly label some new groups as cults, because unlike the olderestablished churches which are lukewarm spiritually these new groups are on fire to help the world.


No church is perfect, so it often amuses me when people demand the ICOC be that way when other churches arecallowed faults. At the end of the day churches are all full of inperfect humans who are doing their best to follow Jesus.

 

[Andrea411]

Hi Jenny,

I am a current member of the ICOC.

I would first be weary of Stravos( who admitted he was only there a few weeks so much of his fact is from ex members who we do not know are being honest or dishonest) and anyone else who quickly labels any group a cult. The Pharisees labelled Jesus a cult leader, and we know that it is incorrect. People wrongly label some new groups as cults, because unlike the olderestablished churches which are lukewarm spiritually these new groups are on fire to help the world.


No church is perfect, so it often amuses me when people demand the ICOC be that way when other churches arecallowed faults. At the end of the day churches are all full of inperfect humans who are doing their best to follow Jesus.

………………………………………………………………..
Biblical Teaching on False Teachers
The following passages shed light on the identifying marks of cult leaders:
Deut 18:22; Jer 24:16-32; Ezek 34:1-10; Matt 7:15-20; Matt 23; 2 Cor 11:4, 13-15; Jude.

Characteristics of a Cult or Spiritually Abusive Group
These characteristics can also be found among some Christian groups. In such cases, this is called “spiritual abuse.”

Exclusivity – they are the only “ark of salvation.” You can’t leave and be saved (“breaking up is hard to do”).
Elitism – all other groups are inferior, apostate, or false; it’s “us against the world.”
Information control – They decide what you should know and believe. You are not free to read or listen to other sources.
Submission – to the leader and group is required, usually a special title must be used when addressing the leader.
Mystical ministry – the leader and sometimes other followers claim special insights from God that are not available to others. This is used to intimidate and manipulate into conformity.
Isolation – they group leads its followers to separate from others (family, friends, the world).
Faithfulness to the group is sacred.
Guilt is used to manipulate.
Authoritarianism – disagreeing with the leader is disagreeing with God.
Legalism – you must work hard to be approved by the group and God.
Majoring on minors – extraordinary focus on minors issues while ignoring real spiritual issues.
Enthusiasm – the group is excited about itself.
Fear/intimidation – questioning and criticism of the group is severely discouraged unless it’s the leader criticizing the followers or other groups.
Conformity of dress, language, lifestyle is strongly encouraged.
Leader has no accountability.
Loss of personal freedom to make life choices about school, marriage, work, family, etc.
Unrealized hopes – whether a prophesy about a soon-coming healing, or a promise of great blessing, or imminent revival, or urgency about the end of the present age, there are often unrealized hopes or expectations that keep you coming back (much like a gambling addiction).
Financial exploitation of followers. Sacrificial giving is practically coerced through tremendous pressure to “give to God.”

Recommended Books on Spiritual Abuse
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Eric Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen.
Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue.
Frontline Ministries - How to Identify a Cult

 

[ICOCguy]

Most groups can have one or two of those chateristics, does not make them a cult.

So unless you are trained in dealing with cults, i would caution you about just posting a list and whipping up scare,tactics.

 

[Andrea411]

Most groups can have one or two of those chateristics, does not make them a cult.

So unless you are trained in dealing with cults, i would caution you about just posting a list and whipping up scare,tactics.

I didn't comment bc I don't know anything about your church. I posted so you could evaluate yourself if it could be a cult/church. The post reads - that most churches have some of these characteristics. I have done quite a bit of study on cults. I came out of LDS and my degree is in Psychology. I give a good deal of time reading and considering what is good and when we can just throw away the bad.
My fear for people involved in serious cults is that they lose their ability to evaluate and or self-cricize their own group and the impact it has on themselves or their families. Frightening it is. One of the most upsetting things is the carrot and stick approach of cults. Only telling you about the good stuff and keeping the future commitments a secret till people are well involved.
Denial is a very real phenomenon. The churches doctrines and history should be public for all to see and when criticisms come, they should be willing to answer - with respect.
God bless, andrea

 

[DerSchweik]

Most groups can have one or two of those chateristics, does not make them a cult.

So unless you are trained in dealing with cults, i would caution you about just posting a list and whipping up scare,tactics.

Unfortunately, in the case of Kip's church, most of these characteristics are indeed true.

Several good books on the topic are "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan and "Discipling Dilemma" by Flavil Yeakly - the latter being devoted specifically to Kip's church. Many other resources exist, though some are not recommended because of their bias; but there is a wealth of information out there discussing the topic - much of it quite in depth.

Understand too that you're talking to people such as myself who have had direct involvement with the church so our experiences, while if one had a mind to treat them as biased they could, are at least of some value.

It took me years - and a LOT of study after leaving to conclude they were indeed a cult; and frankly even more so now for they've taken the principles and practices that many had to struggle with to their logical extreme, rendering the question now moot.

Let me say too that the principle issue that makes Kip's church a cult is imho one - the abuse of authority. When one boils all the issues down, they distill into this one issue which gives animation to all the other abuses people have (and still do) experience.

In all honesty, I am grateful for my 5 or 6 years in the early years. We were devoted to the Word; we were evangelistic; we worshipped and praised God with enthusiasm; we discipled one another; we taught others the Word; we grew; we sang like I've never sang since (sadly). I learned how to study the bible, how to share it and my faith with others; I learned how to sing (yes, that was taught too); I learned how to fellowship, to give, to love, to encourage... and at least the power and import of discipling.

Frankly, I dearly miss that; we haven't seen anything remotely akin to those times in the 25 or so years we've been out of the Movement. But there were dark times too - abuses - many of which I committed myself thinking I was doing the right thing. How many times and to how many people I've had to apologize I've lost track. I would do it differently today, much differently - but, and here's the important thing - I would still do it (well, I do do it).... just differently; and honestly, with a far greater reverence for, and fear of God.

 

[ICOCguy]

1. steven hassan is very biased. and i would cautipn you on reading his works as he did and frpm what i heard still agrees with kidnapping membets out of groups he believes are cukts. Kidnapping is a criminal act.


Also for the above poster, 25years is along time to be out and still making assumptions.
Kip is no longet part of the ICOC but now ovetsers the ICC


All churches have faukts and in my honest opinion (unlike above poster i still attend) they are not as they were.

 

[DerSchweik]

1. steven hassan is very biased. and i would cautipn you on reading his works as he did and frpm what i heard still agrees with kidnapping membets out of groups he believes are cukts. Kidnapping is a criminal act.

Steven Hassan's biases, actual or imagined, are irrelevant. The book is (of a plethora of such books) an excellent resource on cults in general. He doesn't target any one particular cult, but deals with a large variety of cults that run the gamut of different religions as well. He knows what he's talking about.

W/r to "kidnapping" - you're probably referring to interventions or similar such efforts - which are not kidnapping at all. Such hyperbole isn't at all helpful, btw.

Also for the above poster, 25years is along time to be out and still making assumptions.
Kip is no longet part of the ICOC but now ovetsers the ICC

Friend, you might want to go back a few posts and read my first post to Jenny before 1) accusing me of making assumptions and 2) making your own, particularly given you haven't the first clue who I am. I do in fact still have a number of friends in the ICOC. We keep in touch. Having not attended for 25 years is irrelevant. Given how involved we once were, how many friends we had, how many we still have - both in and out of the ICOC themselves - we have quite a network, and one in which a LOT of information passes back and forth. Just because we don't attend anymore does not mean we're remotely ignorant of what's happening -- I mean, after all they are not only my brothers and sisters in Christ, with whom we have not only our relationships with Christ, but in many instances deep friendships with one another.

All churches have faukts and in my honest opinion (unlike above poster i still attend) they are not as they were.

As I told Jenny in the post I referenced above, I acknowledged that many of the ICOC churches have indeed changed - and that largely since Henry Kriek's letter, which was but a catalyst for needed changes that were brewing for many years. No church is perfect; no one is claiming churches need to be perfect. The Boston Movement, ICOC movement issues are not about churches that are imperfect or which "have faults." They have SIGNIFICANT issues, issues that go waaaay beyond the realm of "we're not perfect."

That some are changing, that they are not "as they were" is indeed a good sign - and one many of us praise God for.