Internal vocalisation or thinking

[jasperr]

I was wondering how far back up the evolutionary tree we can go and posit that the "voice in our head": had its own equivalent in those early times?

For sure if we go back little way there can be little doubt that ,say Socrates was constructing dialogues in his head .

If we go back further to the earliest historical figures in recorded history the same surely applies(even if we cannot actually prove it,)

What about even earlier ancestors ? Suppose they did not have written language or that they had no syntax in their vocalisation...

Could they too have had an "internal mentation" that was separate to their immediate dealings with their social or physical environment?

Could there have been logical underpinning to whatever was going on between their ears ?

Would a sensory overload (pain) be a logical trigger for maybe not repeating the action?

How might someone without proper speech tell themselves "Don't do that again me old mate! "?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Images. In fact, words poorly represent the images we have.

 

[jasperr]

Images. In fact, words poorly represent the images we have.

Is there an an image that might have represented "Don't do that again"?(and another that signaled "Do it again,Sam"?)

Could the images be individual memories of and associations with visual events that had occurred in the individual's past?

 

[dlamberth]

I was wondering how far back up the evolutionary tree we can go and posit that the "voice in our head": had its own equivalent in those early times?

For sure if we go back little way there can be little doubt that ,say Socrates was constructing dialogues in his head .

If we go back further to the earliest historical figures in recorded history the same surely applies(even if we cannot actually prove it,)

What about even earlier ancestors ? Suppose they did not have written language or that they had no syntax in their vocalisation...

Could they too have had an "internal mentation" that was separate to their immediate dealings with their social or physical environment?

Could there have been logical underpinning to whatever was going on between their ears ?

Would a sensory overload (pain) be a logical trigger for maybe not repeating the action?

How might someone without proper speech tell themselves "Don't do that again me old mate! "?

I just kind of think that it was images of copulation.

 

[jasperr]

I just kind of think that it was images of copulation.

Would different images of copulation be associated with different internal commands?(I can see how one image might be associated with "I must get away from this situation" ;-)

Would there be enough different images centred on that activity to be useful in other spheres of life(eg "time to go home,fella" or "keep the fire burning" etc etc )

Our dog knows when to"come home".When he sees us turning back he turns around too -unless he is just following us.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I was wondering how far back up the evolutionary tree we can go and posit that the "voice in our head": had its own equivalent in those early times?

Maybe a tangent, but it blows my mind (which has a voice in it) that some people say they do not have a voice in their head.

Not Everyone Has an Inner Voice Streaming through Their Head​

The extent to which people experience “inner speech” varies greatly, and the differences matter for performing certain cognitive tasks

Most of us have an “inner voice,” and we tend to assume everybody does, but recent evidence suggests that people vary widely in the extent to which they experience inner speech, from an almost constant patter to a virtual absence of self-talk. “Until you start asking the right questions you don’t know there’s even variation,” says Gary Lupyan, a cognitive scientist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. “People are really surprised because they’d assumed everyone is like them.”

...

Lupyan had previously assessed 1,037 people using a measure called the Internal Representations Questionnaire (IRQ), as part of ongoing research. For the verbal part of the IRQ participants indicate agreement with statements like: “I think about problems in my mind in the form of a conversation with myself” on a one to five scale.

For the new study, Lupyan and Nedergaard recruited 47 participants who scored the highest for having an inner voice and 46 who registered low scores—roughly in the top and bottom fifths of scores. They then gave these participants four language-related tasks they thought might be influenced by the use of inner speech. In the first, participants were briefly shown five words and asked to repeat them back. The second involved participants saying whether the names of objects in two pictures rhymed. In both experiments the group with less inner speech was less accurate in their responses. For the rhyme judgements, people with more inner speech were also faster. “This wide-ranging study really tests what inner speech gives us in terms of cognitive benefits,” Fernyhough says.

 

[AV1611VET]

I was wondering how far back up the evolutionary tree we can go and posit that the "voice in our head": had its own equivalent in those early times?

It was voices in their heads that gave us that tree.

 

[Jerry N.]

Maybe a tangent, but it blows my mind (which has a voice in it) that some people say they do not have a voice in their head.

Not Everyone Has an Inner Voice Streaming through Their Head​

The extent to which people experience “inner speech” varies greatly, and the differences matter for performing certain cognitive tasks

Most of us have an “inner voice,” and we tend to assume everybody does, but recent evidence suggests that people vary widely in the extent to which they experience inner speech, from an almost constant patter to a virtual absence of self-talk. “Until you start asking the right questions you don’t know there’s even variation,” says Gary Lupyan, a cognitive scientist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. “People are really surprised because they’d assumed everyone is like them.”

...

Lupyan had previously assessed 1,037 people using a measure called the Internal Representations Questionnaire (IRQ), as part of ongoing research. For the verbal part of the IRQ participants indicate agreement with statements like: “I think about problems in my mind in the form of a conversation with myself” on a one to five scale.

For the new study, Lupyan and Nedergaard recruited 47 participants who scored the highest for having an inner voice and 46 who registered low scores—roughly in the top and bottom fifths of scores. They then gave these participants four language-related tasks they thought might be influenced by the use of inner speech. In the first, participants were briefly shown five words and asked to repeat them back. The second involved participants saying whether the names of objects in two pictures rhymed. In both experiments the group with less inner speech was less accurate in their responses. For the rhyme judgements, people with more inner speech were also faster. “This wide-ranging study really tests what inner speech gives us in terms of cognitive benefits,” Fernyhough says.

Many years ago, I had a bad accident. Before the accident, I mostly thought in images. After the accident, I mostly think in words. I can still think in both words and images, but the first thoughts have changed. It hasn’t caused any problems, but the neuron connections in my brain were probably altered by the impact. On one hand, I can process words faster. On the other hand, an extra step is needed to visualize physics, but chemistry became easier.

 

[Ophiolite]

When I saw the title of the thread and read the OP I said to myself, what on Earth is he going on about?

 

[AV1611VET]

When I saw the title of the thread and read the OP I said to myself, what on Earth is he going on about?

I think he's asking about thinking out loud in your head.

We can indeed "think out loud" in our heads, but then he asks about a time when we didn't have language.

Just went around grunting.

Did they then "grunt out loud" in their heads?

If so, did that give them headaches?

 

[jasperr]

When I saw the title of the thread and read the OP I said to myself, what on Earth is he going on about?

I think you are having a laugh but I was also ruminating (a few hours ago when down in the garden)about how, when we do talk to ourselves we are actually creating a virtual person in our mind -a kind of imaginary "friend",foil or companion.

Then I asked myself ,where does the boundary lie between the two entities.Is one more authentic than the other (ie the "real" you ) or is this all relative?

And of course ,can there be more than one -or none at all?

Do some people go through life in an entirely practical way and does the concept of "talking to oneself" never occur to them ? (I am sure it must be latent or potential in everyone who is in the whole of their health)

Edit:I forgot @essentialsaltes addressed that last point about people who have no "inner voice"

 

[AV1611VET]

I think you are having a laugh but I was also ruminating (a few hours ago when down in the garden)about how, when we do talk to ourselves we are actually creating a virtual person in our mind -a kind of imaginary "friend",foil or companion.

There's nothing wrong with talking to yourself.

And there's nothing wrong with answering yourself.

And there's nothing wrong with arguing with yourself.

But when you start saying, "Okay, you two, knock it off!" now you've got a problem.

 

[Ophiolite]

I think you are having a laugh but I was also ruminating (a few hours ago when down in the garden)about how, when we do talk to ourselves we are actually creating a virtual person in our mind -a kind of imaginary "friend",foil or companion.

Then I asked myself ,where does the boundary lie between the two entities.Is one more authentic than the other (ie the "real" you ) or is this all relative?

And of course ,can there be more than one -or none at all?

Do some people go through life in an entirely practical way and does the concept of "talking to oneself" never occur to them ? (I am sure it must be latent or potential in everyone who is in the whole of their health)

Edit:I forgot @essentialsaltes addressed that last point about people who have no "inner voice"

Yes, I was taking the mick. It was too obvious an opportunity to miss.

I use multiple inner voices, depending on purpose. For example, when I've worked in sales I would have lengthy conversations with imagined potential clients during hour long commutes. Since there are few objections that can come up that I hadn't imagined and prepared for to some degree I could give a smooth, confident, professional answers with minimal hesitation. The evening commutes were more likely to be peopled by fictional characters in whatever novel I was trying to write at the time. (None ever finished.)

My internal voice just thought of mentioning that I sometimes hold a debate in my head with one or other member here, and one you (ostensibly) asked "why would you do that". I cannot imagine quite what it would be like not to have that inner voice. Even trying to replicate it here and now, but not saying anything, just looking round I found myself saying "Hmm, nothing actually happens.". Weird.

Do you use multiple voices in any of the ways I have described?

 

[jasperr]

Yes, I was taking the mick. It was too obvious an opportunity to miss.

I use multiple inner voices, depending on purpose. For example, when I've worked in sales I would have lengthy conversations with imagined potential clients during hour long commutes. Since there are few objections that can come up that I hadn't imagined and prepared for to some degree I could give a smooth, confident, professional answers with minimal hesitation. The evening commutes were more likely to be peopled by fictional characters in whatever novel I was trying to write at the time. (None ever finished.)

My internal voice just thought of mentioning that I sometimes hold a debate in my head with one or other member here, and one you (ostensibly) asked "why would you do that". I cannot imagine quite what it would be like not to have that inner voice. Even trying to replicate it here and now, but not saying anything, just looking round I found myself saying "Hmm, nothing actually happens.". Weird.

Do you use multiple voices in any of the ways I have described?

No ,not to that extent .My internal voice tends to be an internal self (or self action) judgement.

You seem to have assembled a cast of characters.You don't get them to talk to each other ,if only vaguely do you?

Do you "oversee the conversation" in any sense.?

None of my internal dialogues have any practical outcomes except for when I am obviously trying to organize something -or any speaking parts for other characters(except perhaps in dreams?)

It is devilishly hard to keep track of your own thoughts -very will o' the wisp

Sometimes though when an idea is preoccupying my mind I will try to back track to to point where I wandered down that track.

It is a bit like "thinking backwards" but the individual thoughts in the chain can never be reproduced

Again like, if I have a nice dream I might try to go back into it as I fall asleep again but this never proves possible.