Interesting....

[Im-a-thinkr-not-a-scholar]

I find 13 topics currently up on this board in the "Unorthodox Theological Doctrines," that concern Mormons. In a way I am happy to see that so many people are learning a lot about Mormons. In another way I am very saddened because I see how many things are being said about the Mormons that are not true.

I am not really convinced that anyone here is really interested in what Mormons believe, they are just trying to prove to Mormons that their religion is false. I really do not see any growth on anyone's part.

It is my sincere hope that since we are in a way all brothers and sisters that if one of us was sick, someone would nurture us. If one of us was starving, we would feed you. If one of us was naked, one of use would clothe you. If one of our church's burned down that we could help rebuild it. I would hope that we would never turn and look the other way just because someone was not exactly like us, did not believe the same as us, or even was our enemy.

I pray that as members of different faiths that we can get along in peace and harmony and that we can look towards what is good in someone rather than immediately point out what is bad. I hope that people in different countries can put aside their differences and avoid war. "To each their own."

 

[joyinchrist]

excellent post, you make a good point!

 

[Serapha]

I am not really convinced that anyone here is really interested in what Mormons believe, they are just trying to prove to Mormons that their religion is false. I really do not see any growth on anyone's part.

Hi there!



Personal question....

Are you here to "grow"?


~malaka~

 

[Im-a-thinkr-not-a-scholar]

Hi there!



Personal question....

Are you here to "grow"?


~malaka~

Someone asked me if I thought Jesus was a liar. That comment struck me hard enough to realize peoples' view of me because of my faith are so distored that I am like a cat trying to cross a busy six lane freeway. No matter what I say, it is just going to get ran-over time and time again here. I wish everyone the best.

 

[Serapha]

Someone asked me if I thought Jesus was a liar. That comment struck me hard enough to realize people's view of me because of my faith are so distored that I am like a cat trying to cross a busy six lane freeway. No matter what I say, it is just going to get ran-over. I wish everyone the best.

Hi there!



This forum is an open discussion forum, and almost every statement made by anyone is confronted by someone else.

Are you here to grow?


When I was in Israel, I sat on the steps leading to the temple mount where the "rabbi's" would teach, and where Jesus would have been teaching when He was in Jerusalem. I sat in the synagogue in Capernaum and told myself... Jesus taught here. Jesus was rejected in both Capernaum and in Jerusalem.... as well as Nazareth, Korizim, Bethsaida, and other cities in the Galilee.




Did he grow because of the rejection? Yes.

Growth is not always from positive sources, and growing from negative experiences is not necessarily "bad."

~malaka~

 

[Wrigley]

I find 13 topics currently up on this board in the "Unorthodox Theological Doctrines," that concern Mormons. In a way I am happy to see that so many people are learning a lot about Mormons. In another way I am very saddened because I see how many things are being said about the Mormons that are not true.

I am not really convinced that anyone here is really interested in what Mormons believe, they are just trying to prove to Mormons that their religion is false. I really do not see any growth on anyone's part.

It is my sincere hope that since we are in a way all brothers and sisters that if one of us was sick, someone would nurture us. If one of us was starving, we would feed you. If one of us was naked, one of use would clothe you. If one of our church's burned down that we could help rebuild it. I would hope that we would never turn and look the other way just because someone was not exactly like us, did not believe the same as us, or even was our enemy.

I pray that as members of different faiths that we can get along in peace and harmony and that we can look towards what is good in someone rather than immediately point out what is bad. I hope that people in different countries can put aside their differences and avoid war. "To each their own."

You're right, there are a lot of thread in this forum about mormonism. One reason is that some posters here noticed a large amount of mormons coming to CFs to post. What better way to show the errors of mormonism than by discussing the doctrine?

I pray that as members of different faiths that we can get along in peace and harmony and that we can look towards what is good in someone rather than immediately point out what is bad. I hope that people in different countries can put aside their differences and avoid war. "To each their own."

Sure, to each their own. The United States is a pretty good place to live because no one is forcing you not to believe what you believe. You have the liberty and the freedom to do what you want, to some extent anyway. But when you come to a Christian forum, and post claim that you are Christian, expect to get rebuttals to your beliefs.
I look see the reaction to many of the mormon here in a positive way. Maybe God is pricking your ears and maybe He is waking you up. Praise God if He uses your participation in CFs to that end.

 

[TOmNossor]

Wrigley:

You're right, there are a lot of thread in this forum about mormonism. One reason is that some posters here noticed a large amount of mormons coming to CFs to post. What better way to show the errors of mormonism than by discussing the doctrine?



TOm:

There would be some value to discussing doctrine, but as most LDS posters have said, we do not believe what you think we believe.

If you really want to aid in saving active knowledgeable LDS, there is much more for you to learn. If you want to create an appearance that the CoJCoLDS is ugly, and prevent other from falling into the “error” that is the CoJCoLDS then you may continue with lists of quotes and what we see here.



In truth, I do not know the witness that would lead me away from the CoJCoLDS. If I did, I guess I would be on your side helping you (instead of on my side trying to help you). What I do know is that I have not learned new anti-arguments here. The best anti-arguments I have seen are not presented here.



I like to think that when the religion I do not believe in is attacked by those who would have me leave the CoJCoLDS that it is out of a lack of understanding coupled with real care for me. The more I see the lack of understanding highlighted by LDS and things not change the less I am able to think this.



Soon I may get more frustrated and decide that the non-LDS want to save those who are ignorant of the true nature of the CoJCoLDS and they are more concerned with the end than with the means. I hope to not reach this conclusion. Some seem to want to not pursue this path, but others do not seem to change (of course this is all just my perception so it is not reality either).



Charity, TOm

 

[Toms777]

There would be some value to discussing doctrine, but as most LDS posters have said, we do not believe what you think we believe.

If you really want to aid in saving active knowledgeable LDS, there is much more for you to learn. If you want to create an appearance that the CoJCoLDS is ugly, and prevent other from falling into the “error” that is the CoJCoLDS then you may continue with lists of quotes and what we see here.



In truth, I do not know the witness that would lead me away from the CoJCoLDS. If I did, I guess I would be on your side helping you (instead of on my side trying to help you). What I do know is that I have not learned new anti-arguments here. The best anti-arguments I have seen are not presented here.



I like to think that when the religion I do not believe in is attacked by those who would have me leave the CoJCoLDS that it is out of a lack of understanding coupled with real care for me. The more I see the lack of understanding highlighted by LDS and things not change the less I am able to think this.



Soon I may get more frustrated and decide that the non-LDS want to save those who are ignorant of the true nature of the CoJCoLDS and they are more concerned with the end than with the means. I hope to not reach this conclusion. Some seem to want to not pursue this path, but others do not seem to change (of course this is all just my perception so it is not reality either).



Charity, TOm

TOm,

There are two things here and we need to carefully separate these. The first is what the LDS church teaches. That is clearly defined and can be found by anyone with interent access or acess to a LDS church. I also have several LDS books within arms reach of my my keyboard.

Second is what people believe. As I said to Juliann, you may not believe what the LDS has or is teaching and that is fine. If you believe something different from what the LDS teaches, then I will take your word for that at face value. But simply because you believe it does not mean that that is what the LDS church teaches. Your beliefs or that of any other Mormon do not define the doctrine of the church. If you have developed your beliefs which differ from the LDS, that means that you are capable of independnt thought - that is a good thing!

On the other hand, when those on here claim that the LDS church teaches something, challenge them to substantiate it. If they can do so, then that cann be clearly substantiated as a teaching of the LDS church. If you agree or disagree with what the chuchrc teaches that is your decision.

I spend some time on this point because too often when substantiation of a teaching of the LDS church is brought forward, a Mormon will come on and say "that is not what I believe". But what TOm or what Juliann believes is not the defining doctrine of the Mormon church, so you are mixing two potentially different things.

As for the witness that might cause you to leave the CoJCoLDS, what if it could be shown that the witness of Jesus Christ as given in the Bible was in direct contradiction to the witness of Jospeh Smith as given in the BoM, the Pearl of Great price and the D&C?

Tom

 

[Juliann]

I strongly suggest that LDS remove themselves from this place. I have been the recipient of some of the most disgusting hatespeech that I have seen yet I recieved a warning for demanding that people who call themselves Christians cease and desist from plagiarizing websites for ugly quotes. It is almost impossible to "defend" and "substantiate" when information is being withheld, Tom. There are several reasons why it is very helpful to know what website people are cutting and pasting from.

You are not only protected from having to defend your own assumptions in here but you are allowed free rein to attack everyone else's. It is not a pretty sight. It is easy for people to look at Muslim fundamentalists and cluck their tongues. It is almost frightening that you cannot see how you come off to most of America when you use the same rigid and unyielding thinking while restricting those who disagree.

Not one of you has been able to substantiate one of your own beliefs in here. You simply rattle off Bible verses as if they are some magic incantation and then chant over and over again how other religions are "deceived" and "false". What you are all missing in this mix is that Mormons can be as wrong as the day is long...but that does not make you one bit more right or secure in your own beliefs.

I see little here but arrogance, disdain, contempt, derision, ridicule and the most rigidly closed minds I ever hope to encounter. If the balance is threatened, those who dare to do so are met with character assaults and restrictions while the merry band of Christians block any discussion by boardslamming with plagiarized quotes from websites they refuse to disclose.

For those of you who do wish to find out about Mormonism I suggest you go to a site that allows responses. But most of all, you had better be prepared to substantiate your own beliefs. My question from my short stay here is...can you?

Badmouthing anyone's religion is not allowed here and you will have to disclose your sources: http://www.fair-lds.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

 

[Serapha]

I see little here but arrogance, disdain, contempt, derision, ridicule and the most rigidly closed minds I ever hope to encounter. If the balance is threatened, those who dare to do so are met with character assaults and restrictions while the merry band of Christians block any discussion by boardslamming with plagiarized quotes from websites they refuse to disclose.

For those of you who do wish to find out about Mormonism I suggest you go to a site that allows responses. But most of all, you had better be prepared to substantiate your own beliefs. My question from my short stay here is...can you?

Badmouthing anyone's religion is not allowed here and you will have to disclose your sources: http://www.fair-lds.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Hi there!




If you present the plagiarized statements, then the moderators will warn the offenders. I have reported plagiarized statements before on every forum where I have posted. This site will warn people who violate the rules.


If you are so certain that people are simply plagiarizing entire texts from other source, you may simply place selected lines in your address and hit enter. Every source available on the internet will come up.

In other words, I will try to be nice here.


Don't whine. Do something about your complaints, either substantiate them or edit your accusations out.

Whining adds nothing to the forums or to the discussion, nor does it identify the individuals who are plagiarizing other people's work.


Actually, my own materials have been plagiarized before, and I find it amusing that people use my materials as their own. It's quite a compliment really to find that someone has found your materials worthy of use.

Please... you can make a difference if only you take the time to do the research to identify the offenders.

Much of religion and Bible theology relies on the credibility of the poster as to the reliability of their statements. If people are using plagiarized work, they should be identified and reported.

~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

Not one of you has been able to substantiate one of your own beliefs in here. You simply rattle off Bible verses as if they are some magic incantation and then chant over and over again how other religions are "deceived" and "false".

Hi there!




That is a pretty harsh statement, to accuse everyone on the forum of not being able to substantiate their own beliefs...

Where is your "proof"?


In that statement, you have condemned the LDS's on the forum as well as the "others".


I think an open apology is in order from you to the board. Making blanket accusations without substantiation is exactly what you are condemning and is exactly what you have done in your own posting here.

Mercy, you need to take a breath, stop accusing EVERYONE, including your brothers and sisters in fellowship.


~malaka~

 

[drstevej]

Not one of you has been able to substantiate one of your own beliefs in here. You simply rattle off Bible verses as if they are some magic incantation and then chant over and over again how other religions are "deceived" and "false".

Those Bible verse really bother you?

Imagine someone citing the Bible to substantiate their beliefs.... what were we thinking ???

Everyone knows "if it glows you know it's so."

​

 

[Juliann]

Hi there!



Don't whine. Do something about your complaints, either substantiate them or edit your accusations out.



~malaka~

I'm not "whining". Having received a request to come...I did. I am leaving and have stated my reasons why.

Since you seem to understand the problem, let me make one more effort to explain what these folks are doing and why it matters.

People compile quotes, ideas, theories, whatever. They put up websites. Websites are generally copyright protected. Anti-Mormons particularly like compiling juicy little unembodied quotes. They put lots and lots of ellipses in while they take out anything that might make that quote make sense in some sort of sane context. If a Mormon who is assailed with this stuff on a daily basis can see which website is being pillaged for quotes it is an automatic tip-off to know if the quote needs to be checked for accuracy.

Here is an example of the latest little [edited by moderator]:

Selections from "These Things Are Sacred", found in the booklet "Preparing To Enter The Holy Temple", page 2. Booklet adapted from The Holy Temple by Boyd K. Packer.

No year. No publisher. He then teases us about a book that could easily be referenced so that we could all fill in the ellipses. What he is implying by not giving us the place he got this information from is that he has both this pamphlet and this book sitting on his desk.

If you really are interested in rectifying this problem instead of lecturing me, how about you go to the Mormon quote thread and ask him to supply the missing information in his reference? . If he doesn't have access to the booklet itself, he is plagiarizing from the person who does and preventing the rest of us from going to the source he took this from and checking it's accuracy for ourselves.

How about you do that with all of these partially referenced quotes they are putting up so that we can find them? I mean...they all have these books, pamphlets and hundred year old newspaper articles sitting on their computer table so it should be no problem at all, right?

Moderator note:
Citing Mormon texts which happen to be hosted on other websites, does NOT comprise "plagiarism". The definition of the word "PLAGIARISM" means to STEAL written work and to CALL IT ONE'S OWN. It makes no difference what the SOURCE is that SUPPLIES the Mormon text; the legitimate approach would be to review the Mormon text ITSELF. If the quotation is WRONG, then refute the quotation with the ORIGINAL WORK.

 

[Toms777]

But most of all, you had better be prepared to substantiate your own beliefs. My question from my short stay here is...can you?

Badmouthing anyone's religion is not allowed here and you will have to disclose your sources: http://www.fair-lds.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Badmouthing other persons on here is not allowed either, Juliann.

Now, I am prepared to substantiate my beliefs. How about you?

My source for the majority of what I will have to say to substantiate my beliefs will be the Bible. My sources regarding Mormonism will, for the most part be the LDS website, FARMS, FAIRLDS, and books published by Mormons.

Are you prepared to discuss with the personal stuff?

 

[snerkel]

Here is an example of the latest little fly-by plagiarizer:

Selections from "These Things Are Sacred", found in the booklet "Preparing To Enter The Holy Temple", page 2. Booklet adapted from The Holy Temple by Boyd K. Packer.

No year. No publisher. He then teases us about a book that could easily be referenced so that we could all fill in the ellipses. What he is implying by not giving us the place he got this information from is that he has both this pamphlet and this book sitting on his desk.

Juliann, the definition of plagiarize is to steal and pass off as one's own work. It is obvious that the person did NOT pass the work off as his/her own.

As for where the information is currently residing is irrelevant. It is a deflection from that fact that the information has been presented and there is no refutation against it.

 

[Serapha]

I'm not "whining". Having received a request to come...I did. I am leaving and have stated my reasons why.

Since you seem to understand the problem, let me make one more effort to explain what these folks are doing and why it matters.

People compile quotes, ideas, theories, whatever. They put up websites. Websites are generally copyright protected. Anti-Mormons particularly like compiling juicy little unembodied quotes. They put lots and lots of ellipses in while they take out anything that might make that quote make sense in some sort of sane context. If a Mormon who is assailed with this stuff on a daily basis can see which website is being pillaged for quotes it is an automatic tip-off to know if the quote needs to be checked for accuracy.

Here is an example of the latest little fly-by plagiarizer:

Selections from "These Things Are Sacred", found in the booklet "Preparing To Enter The Holy Temple", page 2. Booklet adapted from The Holy Temple by Boyd K. Packer.

No year. No publisher. He then teases us about a book that could easily be referenced so that we could all fill in the ellipses. What he is implying by not giving us the place he got this information from is that he has both this pamphlet and this book sitting on his desk.

If you really are interested in rectifying this problem instead of lecturing me, how about you go to the Mormon quote thread and ask him to supply the missing information in his reference? . If he doesn't have access to the booklet itself, he is plagiarizing from the person who does and preventing the rest of us from going to the source he took this from and checking it's accuracy for ourselves.

How about you do that with all of these partially referenced quotes they are putting up so that we can find them? I mean...they all have these books, pamphlets and hundred year old newspaper articles sitting on their computer table so it should be no problem at all, right?

Hi there!




If I have posted plagiarized statements, then show the proof. I am almost fanatical about citing references when I use another's work... even in "paraphrase" I will cite the source.

Additionally, if an internet site carries a disclaimer that the information may not be used elsewhere on the internet, and I am AWARE of that disclaimer, then I simply will not use their source.

Also, I am well-acquainted with particular fonts and texts types. Certain punctuations aren't available on THIS site, and when I see those punctuations, I know the information is plagiarized from other sites.... as the only way to post it here is to cut-n-paste it off other sites.


Don't accuse everyone, just simply cite the guilty, and report them.


Please....

~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

I'm not "whining". Having received a request to come...I did. I am leaving and have stated my reasons why.

Juliann...


Before you leave, perhaps you would want to pm the owner of the site and express your concerns or else post a question on the first forum on this site. I believe that is the open forum for improving the "Christianforums" site.


If it isn't the "first" forum, then it is the second forum.


~malaka~

 

[Juliann]

Juliann, the definition of plagiarize is to steal and pass off as one's own work. It is obvious that the person did NOT pass the work off as his/her own.

As for where the information is currently residing is irrelevant. It is a deflection from that fact that the information has been presented and there is no refutation against it.

Thank you for making my point about the lack of regard for accuracy, accountability and respect that infects this forum.

Nice meeting you all. Please do stay together in one place.

“It is of immense significance that evangelicals are not doing the kind of work for which research universities exist and which is recognized by Nobel Prizes. Why? Because the great institutions of higher learning in Western culture function as the mind of Western culture. They define what is important, they specify procedures to be respected, they set agendas for analyzing the practical problems of the works, they provide vocabulary for dealing with the perennial Great Issues, they produce the books that get read and that over decades continue to influence thinking around the world--and they do these tasks not only for the people who are aware of their existence but for us all.

Evangelicals who think that the basic intellectual operations performed by the modern research universities can be conceded to “the world” without doing fundamental damage to the cause of Christ may think of themselves as orthodox Christians. In reality, however, they are modern-day Manichaeans, gnostics, or docetists.”



Mark A. Noll, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1994) p. 51.

 

[Toms777]

Thank you for making my point about the lack of regard for accuracy, accountability and respect that infects this forum.

Nice meeting you all. Please do stay together in one place.

Juliann,

If you see something inaccurate, the best way to address it is to substantiate your perspective with solid, verifiable evidence - don't just tell us that we are wrong. I know that I, for one, would appreciate input on anything that you see where my sources are inaccurate - but I don't just take the word of indidviduals for it, because that is one of the greatest potential sources of error, Rather I check these things out by going to the sources wherever possible. That is why you will see me so often reference the Bible, or when trying to accurately show Mormon teachings, I go to the LDS website, FAIRLDS website or FARMS website, aomngst others, as well as Mormon publications. So if you see inaccuracies, I for one encourage you to identify them and provide the verifiable evidence of that error and the source by which we can see the truth.

If you use this approach, you will do much to add value to these discussions.

Consider.

Tom

 

[rnmomof7]

I find 13 topics currently up on this board in the "Unorthodox Theological Doctrines," that concern Mormons. In a way I am happy to see that so many people are learning a lot about Mormons. In another way I am very saddened because I see how many things are being said about the Mormons that are not true.

How many were started by Mormons? I would guess half

I am not really convinced that anyone here is really interested in what Mormons believe, they are just trying to prove to Mormons that their religion is false. I really do not see any growth on anyone's part.

It is my sincere hope that since we are in a way all brothers and sisters that if one of us was sick, someone would nurture us. If one of us was starving, we would feed you. If one of us was naked, one of use would clothe you. If one of our church's burned down that we could help rebuild it. I would hope that we would never turn and look the other way just because someone was not exactly like us, did not believe the same as us, or even was our enemy.

I pray that as members of different faiths that we can get along in peace and harmony and that we can look towards what is good in someone rather than immediately point out what is bad. I hope that people in different countries can put aside their differences and avoid war. "To each their own."

Christians and non Christians can have friendship...and the call to feed the hungry and cloth the naked is not solely for within the Christian family .

But we can not have any spiritual fellowship or share any prayer

2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them