Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

[inked_n_pink]

Also, did you know more Women are killed by abortion than childbirth?

Now who is being dishonest? More women are not killed by abortion than childbirth. In fact, the only abortion procedure which yields comparable maternal fatality rates is late term Dilation & Extraction, which your group likes to call "partial birth abortion". The maternal fatality rates for D&X are about 1% lower than childbirth.

 

[inked_n_pink]

As per the CDC yearly data:

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Death rate: 6 or 7 per million procedures on average (about 9 times safer than bearing the fetus to term)[/font]

 

[pthalomarie]

After praying and studying this subject for some time I have come to find that abortion is offering a sacrifice to an idol.

You can't sacrafice to an idol if you don't recognize the idol, or realize its existence. I know what you're probably intending to say here, but the point of an idol is that you're worshipping someone or something other than God.

Those who speak for abortion needs to shut their mouths and examine the situation in a first person standpoint.

How would you feel if people told you to shut your mouth? It probably would annoy you, right?

So instead of trying to bully people into silence, why not engage them in a civil dialogue?

If half a brain abided there you may think, " When I was in my mothers womb would I have said abortion is ok?"

There is, actually, a fairly morbid argument that because an aborted infant would go straight to heaven, abortion guarantees their salvation, and is therefore compassionate in a perverse way.

I'm not saying that I buy into this line of thinking, but if you're going to imagine the fetus' viewpoint, it's one worth considering. Proponents of this argument would say that if you changed the fetus' question to, "If there's a chance I could end up in hell, would I want to take it?" , it would give a very different answer than the one you assume with your question.

What if God aborted His children because He just does not want them.

As others have said, God has advocated infanticide in the past. Granted, His motives were far beyond our understanding, and therefore always pure. But He has done it.

Or worse, what if Christ had been aborted?

You can run this argument both ways, i.e. "what if Hitler had been aborted?"

To get back to your original point about voting, the mantra I've been trying to get through the people is that who you vote for does not impact abortion one bit. Abortion law is beyond the scope of anything congress can change, or intend to change.

 

[Archivist]

Actually, it was worded that way by the writers of the constitution of the United States..
origionally coined by God.

Where is this phrase in the US Constitution????

 

[geocajun]

Now who is being dishonest? More women are not killed by abortion than childbirth. In fact, the only abortion procedure which yields comparable maternal fatality rates is late term Dilation & Extraction, which your group likes to call "partial birth abortion". The maternal fatality rates for D&X are about 1% lower than childbirth.

did you bother to read the link you removed from my quote?
http://www.staycatholic.com/abortio...ore_mothers.htm

 

[geocajun]

Where is this phrase in the US Constitution????

doh! sorry, declaration of independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

 

[geocajun]

Yes, you have failed to see my point. It is legal to have an abortion, it is not legal to kill your already born children.

so you were making the point that it is legal to have an abortion, by stating that 12,000 babies were born each day in contrast to the 4,000 unborn which are murdered?

 

[Archivist]

doh! sorry, declaration of independence:

The Declaration of Independence is part of the Organic Law of the United States. However, it carries no legal weight.

 

[inked_n_pink]

did you bother to read the link you removed from my quote?

Removed? It hasn't been removed. Anyway, yes I read the site and it's Catholic propaganda. Obviously the Catholic Church who is not only extremely anti-abortion, but also anti-contraception, will say whatever it takes to make abortion look as dangerous as possible, even if their information from a less than reliable source doesn't mesh with information from the CDC. Just like these anti-abortion groups tell women that abortion causes breast cancer when the American Cancer Society has already issued a report that clearly states there is no link between abortion and breast cancer. So who should the American population trust? The Right to Life League or the American Cancer Society? Come on now, it's a no-brainer.

 

[inked_n_pink]

Oh and I should also add that making it illegal is futile. There are fewer abortions now than there were before Roe vs. Wade made abortion legal.

 

[Fuzzy]

so "A" reason was given, and you took it as the "only reason" possible?

No, "a reason" was given, and I raised questions from there. Is it the only
reason? Probably not. Is it a reason he gave? Yes.

of course, because we cannot possibly conclude that people just haven't figured out whats been revealed... better that we assume a deficit on the part of God right?

Being the person who does not agree with what God's saying, I'm rather
bound to consider that deficit.

Its source is HLI Human Life International, however I couldn't find it right away on their website, but I will look a little later when i am not at work

Also, did you know more Women are killed by abortion than childbirth?
http://www.staycatholic.com/abortion_kills_more_mothers.htm

I'll wait for your HLI info.

However, your second URL gives mathematical percentages, ie, a woman
who has an abortion is X times more likely to have Y happen than a woman
who doesn't. The survey cited at the beginning of the article merely lists
the pool used, 173,000 female death records. It does not break down
how many had abortions, how many had ever been pregnant, or how each
one died. The study cited a 154% greater likelihood of the woman dying via
suicide. If there were five deaths by suicide in the population, and three
of those women had had abortions, that establishes the 150% rate right
there. But that's 5 deaths out of 173,000. About half of the article deals
with one abortion, and corresponding death of the woman.

Now, that being said, there's http://www.roevwade.org/abortdeaths.html
which lists deaths per year from legally obtained abortions.

If we limit it to the post Roe v Wade years, and recognizing the records were not kept after 1987 (listed on the page), we have 215 reported deaths
from legal abortions versus the number of abortions performed, versus the
number you've cited of 4000 abortions per day, times 365 days a year, times
15 years (inclusive of all of 1973 and 1987) we get 21.9 MILLION abortions
performed where abortion did NOT cause the death of the mother. Now,
there's going to be some disparity in cases of multpile fetuses (twins, etc.)
but even if we reduce the abortions performed by a factor of ten and round
down to 2 million, that's 215 deaths from abortion in that time frame out
of a population of 2 million. That's .01075% of the legal abortions performed
in that timeframe.

Now, we should look at number of births in those years.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/proj2012/table_B1.asp

1973 alone listed 3.1 million births in the US.
2001 was projected at 3.9 million births

Meanwhile, 2 million people died in the US from ALL causes in 2001.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

So...if we assume the deaths in the US for Septicimia in 2001
broke down evenly between men and women, we get 16,000
deaths among women, with 3.9 million pregnancies going to
term. 4 million pregnancies, with 16000 deaths from blood
toxicity as mentioned in the article you linked to (Marla died
of septicimia contracte during the abortion). That's also
4 million pregnancies versus 1.5 million abortions (4000 x 365). If we assume
an equal number of septicimia deaths on each side, and assume the
septicimia was pregnancy, delivery, or abortion related, we get 8000
on each side in one year. Far higher than the number of deaths
attributed to abortion that I cited earlier.

Then there's just raw facts on abortions performed, and for who.
http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/trends.pdf

Page three shows the abortion related deaths in 1997 at less than 20. Not
20,000, not 200, 20. So, our earlier assumption of the 16,000 septicimia
deaths, and its 8000/8000 breakdown shifts heavily in favor of pregnancy
and childbirth killing more women than abortion. Their chart matches
the earlier figure of 215 pretty well.

My conclusion would be that pregnancy is just as fatal for the mother as
abortions, if not more so.

 

[Monica02]

Do you agree with the exceptions the 60's laws allowed for?


QUOTE]

I honestly do not know the exact terms of the laws. I only know that my mother told me that the doctor offered and that my mother would not even consider it. That said, I do not believe that direct abortion should ever be allowed. The Church does teach that medical treatment to save the life of the mother is morally permissible. If this treatment results (as a secondary result) in the death of the unborn child, this is not considered a direct abortion.
All efforts should be made to save both lives. I do not support laws that would allow for health exception.

 

[Monica02]

Well, it had to come from someone, somewhere. Somebody, at some point, was the first person to say the word "word." The act of forming new words and new languages is the very same "verbal engineering" that you seem to find so sinister.

.

I never said verbal engineering in and of itself was sinister. The term "pro-choice" is a verbally engineered term to put a nice face on the killing of the unborn. That is what I said.

 

[Archivist]

I do not believe that direct abortion should ever be allowed. The Church does teach that medical treatment to save the life of the mother is morally permissible. If this treatment results (as a secondary result) in the death of the unborn child, this is not considered a direct abortion. All efforts should be made to save both lives. I do not support laws that would allow for health exception.

Do you believe that a person has a right of self defense if their life is threatened? If so, why do you want to take this right away from pregnant women.

I'm happy for you that your mother chose to carry you to term. Why do you want to take this choice away from other women who face the risk of death if they carry children to term?

 

[Monica02]

Do you believe that a person has a right of self defense if their life is threatened? If so, why do you want to take this right away from pregnant women.

I'm happy for you that your mother chose to carry you to term. Why do you want to take this choice away from other women who face the risk of death if they carry children to term?

I am also happy that my mother did not kill me.

Can you not understand the difference between health and life?

I support a women's right to have the neccessary medical treatment to save her life. Abortion is not medical treatment- it is the killing of an unborn child.

Any pregnancy carries the "risk" of death.

 

[inked_n_pink]

The term "pro-choice" is a verbally engineered term to put a nice face on the killing of the unborn.

On that same token we can say that the pro-life side is really trying to put a pretty spin on their cause, as if they are admirable for advocating the sanctity of life, when in reality most of them still support war and capital punishment.

 

[inked_n_pink]

I am also happy that my mother did not kill me.

And it's a wonderful thing your mother had that choice.

 

[Archivist]

Any pregnancy carries the "risk" of death.

Which is why women should have the option to choose to abort.

 

[Monica02]

On that same token we can say that the pro-life side is really trying to put a pretty spin on their cause, as if they are admirable for advocating the sanctity of life, when in reality most of them still support war and capital punishment.

This pro-lifer does not support capital punishment. I support war in some cases. The "pro-life" term is normally understood to include abortion, euthenasia, cloning, embryonic stem cell research and capital punishment issues. War would have its own term. The pro-aborts love to drag the war issue and the capital punishment issue into the abortion debate because they need to change the subject.

 

[geocajun]

And it's a wonderful thing your mother had that choice.

she still has the choice to kill her today. Its wonderful that she doesn't, isn't it.