Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

[Fuzzy]

Those who speak for abortion needs to shut their mouths and examine the situation in a first person standpoint. Where would their exclusive voices be had this thing they stand so strongly for taken their own life? If half a brain abided there you may think, " When I was in my mothers womb would I have said abortion is ok?"

This is an opinionated stance. One, the fetus isn't developed enough in utero
to speak or be self aware. Two, adult males have, at best, a subjective
point of view regarding abortion, since we cannot look at it with the point of
view of being pregnant, and by biology are hard pressed for a true first person
perspective.

What if God aborted His children because He just does not want them... Or worse, what if Christ had been aborted?

How many children did God abort with Noah's Flood? Or with the plagues on
Egypt? Or destroying Sodom and Gammorah? Or any time that God led his
Chosen People to overthrow some other nation? As far as "what if Christ had
been aborted," there would be no Christianity. So, everyone of the Christian
faith would be some other religion. Some other Messiah figure might have
arisen, or not. "What if" questions can go anywhere.

This is a sick subject that, in my view, will not be fully refined untill Christ comes back for so many "Rights" have been given that they have come back to taunt us. When we speak of this matter as a right we only address the rights the devil acquires to the mothers body.

So, you're stating (in your title) that this is not a matter of opinion, but
you state your opinion. And as far as this "devil," why should those who
don't believe as you do be subjected to your beliefs?

No doubt a great many things will be rectified or settled by a Messiah, or
Second Coming, or Unquestionable Divine Revelation. But some things can't
wait for these things to occur, if they ever do.

 

[All4one]

So, you're stating (in your title) that this is not a matter of opinion, but
you state your opinion. And as far as this "devil," why should those who
don't believe as you do be subjected to your beliefs?

When I stated my opinion it was in the order the matter will be delt with. If you read I was refering to Christ refining this sin. People are subjected to my beliefs because they are true. Many will be "subjected" to what God believes regardless of thier own beliefs. What God believes is true is true.

In Love,
All4one

 

[All4one]

How many children did God abort with Noah's Flood? Or with the plagues on
Egypt? Or destroying Sodom and Gammorah?

The difference in innocence and sin. These people made their own decision, that is to follow sin and destruction. We are also referring to the difference between man and divinity. Man contributes to the creation of a child but does not "knit it together in the mothers womb." Who is to say that God, who created us, has no right over His own creation? We have been given so many contradicting rights that we think our rights over rule Gods.

In Love,
All4one

 

[Fuzzy]

People are subjected to my beliefs because they are true. Many will be "subjected" to what God believes regardless of thier own beliefs. What God believes is true is true.

People are subject to "God's" beliefs once, and if, "God" subjects them, willingly
or unwillingly. No one is subject to your beliefs, because you are not "God" and
thus don't have power to subject them. It is a matter of faith that you
believe your beliefs are in line with what "God" believes. You may well get to
"God's" presence and be told you were wrong. Without a palpable, universal
revelation, your God, and my gods, cannot submit everyone. The existence
in history of non-Abrahamic societies not following the Abrahamic God
establishes there's not a universal revelation. Now, some Christians would
counter that any deity that's not "God/Jesus" is therefore "Satan," but that's
a matter of faith, which is only relevant to the faithful. Even today,
with different faiths all claiming they've got the one true word, and other
faiths existing DESPITE the others, and advancements in getting one's
respective message out (such as television or the internet), also establishes
there's no incontestable, universal revelation.

 

[Fuzzy]

The difference in innocence and sin. These people made their own decision, that is to follow sin and destruction. We are also referring to the difference between man and divinity. Man contributes to the creation of a child but does not "knit it together in the mothers womb." Who is to say that God, who created us, has no right over His own creation? We have been given so many contradicting rights that we think our rights over rule Gods.

So, because God decided that the pregnant woman, and by extension, her fetus
(who had done nothing, sinful or not sinful, because it wasn't born) had to be
destroyed, or aborted, that's okay because it's God. Isn't that a case
of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Last I checked, cellular mitosis and genetics crafted the fetus, or "knit it
together in the mother's womb." Whether or not there's a soul, or
when ensoulment occurs, is when spirituality gets into it.

Assuming one God created everything, and destroys it because of sin,
and sin can only happen if you're turning away from that God, why did
God see fit to destroy all the parts of His creation incapable of sin?

 

[All4one]

It is a matter of faith that you
believe your beliefs are in line with what "God" believes.

No it is by Gods word which IS truth. Because of this liberal view that everything is just a matter of belief people have formed denominations, church splits, and seperate workings from God. Opinion is not truth... truth is truth. What God reveals to me as truth I accept as truth. That is not subjecting- it is truth.


I say these things in love, I want no strife here...

In Christ
All4one

 

[All4one]

So, because God decided that the pregnant woman, and by extension, her fetus
(who had done nothing, sinful or not sinful, because it wasn't born) had to be
destroyed, or aborted, that's okay because it's God. Isn't that a case
of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

This is explained the last time I addressed the question. God ONLY has the right to His creation. In a mild sense if you had an animal and a person came and killed YOUR animal saying that it is their right would it not also be your right? Everything God does is perfect as well. He is a jealous God yet commands us not to be so... Why? His actions are just... Why. Simply because He IS God.

Last I checked, cellular mitosis and genetics crafted the fetus, or "knit it
together in the mother's womb." Whether or not there's a soul, or
when ensoulment occurs, is when spirituality gets into it.

This is a blinding statement for God made that "cellular mitosis" His way of creating a living being. Should we expect God to come down with flesh and things in His hand, open the woman, and build a child inside her? God says it and it is done. All nature does not have to be as a result of nothing more then His word. He does not have to turn a fan on to create a breeze nor tip over a large pale to create water.

Assuming one God created everything, and destroys it because of sin,
and sin can only happen if you're turning away from that God, why did
God see fit to destroy all the parts of His creation incapable of sin?

"Incapable?" No, God does not just kill people because they turn from Him.. In that case Jesus would not have died. Everyone is capable of sin. We view death of a young one as a terrible thing which it is when conducted through sin BUT when God takes a young one they will go to heaven anyways. Is that really a bad thing?

Once again.. In another discussion much like this one it turned into an all out arguement. I only wish to discuss the matter at hand not fight over it.

In Christs Love,
All4one

 

[geocajun]

Yes, it is life and it is human. However, it is not a person, it is a potential person. It becomes a person when it develops consciousness.

the last person I know of who said "these people aren't persons" was hitler, talking about why it was OK to kill Jews and Catholics.

 

[geocajun]

Yes, it is life and it is human. However, it is not a person, it is a potential person. It becomes a person when it develops consciousness.

I really don't know. I'm not sure how I feel about this subject. I'm not really pro-life or pro-choice, just somewhere in the middle.

Life begins at conception, but not all life has equal value.

I am personally against abortion but I refuse to force someone to accept my views on it because I know that there is no consensus about this topic.

I don't believe in a soul, nor do I believe in some inherent "right to life" that we possess. Ultimately, it's neither "good" nor "bad" whether individual humans, or even the entire human race, survive for any length of time. However, we humans place a subjective value on our lives, because although they are not objectively "good", they are nevertheless important to us.

I believe that there is no "moral" side to the debate. ...
It's basically like watching Hitler and Stalin fight each other, and then being asked who I'm going to cheer for.

What an excellent response. "I don't like it...but I don't want to prevent someone else from doing it." I wish there were more people like you around, Holly.

That's what being pro-choice means. Not being in favour of abortion, but being in favour of people having the right to choose.

This sort of chaos is just from the first 40 posts responses in this thread...
Lord have Mercy!

The complete genetic makeup is present and determined at the time of conception. The DNA of the new life is completely his own. This constitutes human life. He is a human life in the case of rape and incest too. She is a human life if the mother is poor. He is a human life if the parents are drug addicts. She is a human life if the mother is sick. He is a human life if it is deformed or Downes Syndromed. She is a human life whether you, me or anyone else thinks she has a soul. He is a human life whether you, me or anyone else thinks he has value.

Biologically a human life begins at conception. That is a simple fact. Certainly there are those who grandly declare their right to dispose of another human life because to do so suits their personal interest. Filthy concentration camp or gleaning abortuary the amorality is equal.

glad there is a voice of reason in this thread, keep up the good work you two!

There are over 4,000 babies per day being slaughtered and its a tragic shame that so many "Christians" on this board aren't willing to do what you two just did... that is, to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

 

[Fuzzy]

"Incapable?" No, God does not just kill people because they turn from Him.. In that case Jesus would not have died. Everyone is capable of sin. We view death of a young one as a terrible thing which it is when conducted through sin BUT when God takes a young one they will go to heaven anyways. Is that really a bad thing?

I apologize for being vague. I was referencing the trees, the plants, and all
the animals which were destroyed, for example, by the Great Flood. Were
they capable of sin? If so, why was only a select pair of each type saved?
If they weren't capable of sin, why were they destroyed? Why didn't your
God simply eradicate the sinners, or create a tailored plague or disease
to wipe them out? Or was there some deeper plan of God's that he didn't
see fit to reveal to humans or include in the Bible? If there's one deeper
plan, why can't there be more? Why can't God tell you one "truth," and
me, in the form of my faith, tell another "truth," and tell to the person having
an abortion another "truth?" From your "truth" and your statements,
God could do that.

Once again.. In another discussion much like this one it turned into an all out arguement. I only wish to discuss the matter at hand not fight over it.

We're really moving into apologetics territory here. To get back to the OP,
when does the fetus have the rights entitled to a extra-utero person? (is
that a word? )

 

[inked_n_pink]

There are over 4,000 babies per day being slaughtered

Yes and almost 12,000 in American are being born every single day.

I'm sorry you feel someone is somehow less of a Christian just because they support abortion. I find it offensive you put the word Christian in quotation marks as if they aren't really a Christian just because they haven't posted on here screaming "ABORTION IS MURDER!!!"

 

[geocajun]

I apologize for being vague. I was referencing the trees, the plants, and all
the animals which were destroyed, for example, by the Great Flood. Were
they capable of sin?

would it matter? be capable or incapable of sin is not a guage by which we can determine if killing someone or something is moral or not.
People are called to communion with God, and that is what gives us our enormous dignity. People are created in the image and likeness of God, and that also gives us our enourmous dignity.
[/quote]

when does the fetus have the rights entitled to a extra-utero person? (is
that a word? )

a fetus is just a smaller person, lacking only time, and the baby will be as big as you.
Is it OK to kill small people? there are plenty of retarted people who aren't any smarter than a fetus... is it OK to kill them? or not OK because they have arms and legs?

 

[geocajun]

Yes and almost 12,000 in American are being born every single day.

I have 3 kids.. does that make it OK for me to kill one of them? I had more kids than I killed right? so whats the problem here.... Every life is precious, and every life is created by God, with the self-evident right to life.

I'm sorry you feel someone is somehow less of a Christian just because they support abortion. I find it offensive you put the word Christian in quotation marks as if they aren't really a Christian just because they haven't posted on here screaming "ABORTION IS MURDER!!!"

Is that some sort of vicarious offense or just plain ol demogoguery on your part?

 

[inked_n_pink]

I have 3 kids.. does that make it OK for me to kill one of them?

I'm sorry, but that is not a valid argument in the abortion debate.

so whats the problem here.... Every life is precious, and every life is created by God, with the self-evident right to life.

And not everyone worships your god, so why should someone be forced to endure a pregnancy they don't want because you say that your god created that life? And there's no such thing as a self-evident "right to life". That is a misleading term coined by the anti-abortion movement.

 

[geocajun]

I'm sorry, but that is not a valid argument in the abortion debate.

you just used it.. I don't understand the problem. You said 12,000 babies were born each day, as if that somehow justifed the slaughter of 4,000 babies each day.

And not everyone worships your god, so why should someone be forced to endure a pregnancy they don't want because you say that your god created that life?

not "my" God. It's God. the creator. God who IS. God.
the Objective God, who exists without you pretending he does or not.

And there's no such thing as a self-evident "right to life". That is a misleading term coined by the anti-abortion movement.

Actually, it was worded that way by the writers of the constitution of the United States..
origionally coined by God.

 

[inked_n_pink]

you just used it.. I don't understand the problem. You said 12,000 babies were born each day, as if that somehow justifed the slaughter of 4,000 babies each day.

No, you misinterpreted my point. You were whining about how 4,000 fetuses are aborted every day and I was trying to show you that in comparison to the number of births there are each day it's not that big of a number. And I don't have to justify my pro-choice stance to anyone.

not "my" God. It's God. the creator. God who IS. God.
the Objective God, who exists without you pretending he does or not.

Well hey, we all need something to believe in I suppose.

Actually, it was worded that way by the writers of the constitution of the United States..
origionally coined by God.

So your god wrote the Constitution? Amazing...so he wrote the Bible AND the United States Constitution. And yes, it does say "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", but that only applies to US citizens. A fetus is not a citizen until after its birth. So that means it is the woman who is given the right to life (HER life...), liberty (to continue to live her life in a manner in which she sees fit) and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Fuzzy]

would it matter? be capable or incapable of sin is not a guage by which we can determine if killing someone or something is moral or not.
People are called to communion with God, and that is what gives us our enormous dignity. People are created in the image and likeness of God, and that also gives us our enourmous dignity.

Ah, but we (All4one and I) were discussing God's ability to destroy his
creation, wherein a reason given for God's destruction of his creation was
sin. This raises the question of why God would destroy something that
can't sin, and thus doesn't need to be destroyed for sinning. If God has
unknown reasons for doing something, then God has not revealed the
complete Truth. If God has not revealed the complete truth, then it
follows that those who follow him don't have the complete truth. Thus,
condemnation for those who don't follow the "revealed" truth is faulty,
since the non-followers may actually be following the "unrevealed" truth.

On another topic, I respectfully question your figure of 4000 potential lives
being ended per day. Does it account for fetuses, that if left alone, would
actually have developed to term and not naturally aborted or been stillborn?
Is it based in verifiable records, or is it based on a mathematical
extrapolation? Is the number questionably inflated because it accounts for
Fetus A, being aborted, cannot eventually concieve Fetus A-1, and A-1 -->
A-2, and so on? I'm not saying the number's flat out wrong, but I am
questioning the math behind it.

 

[geocajun]

No, you misinterpreted my point. You were whining about how 4,000 fetuses are aborted every day and I was trying to show you that in comparison to the number of births there are each day it's not that big of a number. And I don't have to justify my pro-choice stance to anyone.

so it woudn't be that big of a deal if I killed 1 person since I have 3 kids right? or it would be worse if I killed 1 person, if I had no kids right?
I still fail to see your point.

So your god wrote the Constitution? Amazing...so he wrote the Bible AND the United States Constitution. And yes, it does say "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", but that only applies to US citizens. A fetus is not a citizen until after its birth. So that means it is the woman who is given the right to life (HER life...), liberty (to continue to live her life in a manner in which she sees fit) and the pursuit of happiness.

Have you read the consititution? it says we hold these truths to be self evident. It does not append "for US citizens"...
And who said God wrote the constitution? I simply said that both God, and the writers of the constitution agreed on a point.
You are being dishonest, and its clear to everyone, except you maybe..

 

[geocajun]

Ah, but we (All4one and I) were discussing God's ability to destroy his
creation, wherein a reason given for God's destruction of his creation was
sin.
This raises the question of why God would destroy something that
can't sin, and thus doesn't need to be destroyed for sinning.

so "A" reason was given, and you took it as the "only reason" possible?

If God has
unknown reasons for doing something, then God has not revealed the
complete Truth.

of course, because we cannot possibly conclude that people just haven't figured out whats been revealed... better that we assume a deficit on the part of God right?
have you had any formal philosophy training?

On another topic, I respectfully question your figure of 4000 potential lives
being ended per day. Does it account for fetuses, that if left alone, would
actually have developed to term and not naturally aborted or been stillborn?
Is it based in verifiable records, or is it based on a mathematical
extrapolation? Is the number questionably inflated because it accounts for
Fetus A, being aborted, cannot eventually concieve Fetus A-1, and A-1 -->
A-2, and so on? I'm not saying the number's flat out wrong, but I am
questioning the math behind it.

Its source is HLI Human Life International, however I couldn't find it right away on their website, but I will look a little later when i am not at work

Also, did you know more Women are killed by abortion than childbirth?
http://www.staycatholic.com/abortion_kills_more_mothers.htm

 

[inked_n_pink]

so it woudn't be that big of a deal if I killed 1 person since I have 3 kids right? or it would be worse if I killed 1 person, if I had no kids right?
I still fail to see your point.

Yes, you have failed to see my point. It is legal to have an abortion, it is not legal to kill your already born children.

Have you read the consititution? it says we hold these truths to be self evident. It does not append "for US citizens"...
And who said God wrote the constitution? I simply said that both God, and the writers of the constitution agreed on a point.

You said, and I quote:

the constitution of the United States..
origionally coined by God.

You are being dishonest, and its clear to everyone, except you maybe..

How am I being dishonest? I am stating plain facts. Abortion is legal. If fetuses were considered US citizens they would be issued birth certificates while still inutero. Not everyone worships your god. Most of the men who wrote the Constitution were not Christians.