Interesting Scenario

[inchristalone221]

Bottom line with the topic of conversation going on between the two teenagers on this thread is simply that the world will always think Christians are legalistic.

But you must at least admit that they have every right to think that, considering the fact that the VAST majority of Christians ARE legalistic.

No offense meant to anyone who is part of these groups, but think of the entire Southern Baptist Convention. Or worse, the Nazarene churches. The church today is legalist. It has just shifted from "touch not, taste not, handle not" to "drink not, smoke not, dance not, tattoo not, gamble not."

 

[bradfordl]

seeking holiness is important, but it doesn't mean we need to give people an excuse to speak against us and against God as "goody-two-shoes" who won't even speak to a person because they use a word that offends us. we accomplish much more by dealing in love, when a person uses God's Name in vain, then is when I would speak.

We accomplish more what?

I thought the reason we deal with people in a loving manner was that we glorify God by it. I had no idea that God was going to amend His eternal plan based on how sweetly we aquiesce to the vulgar mouthings of the unregenerate! Now I'm really sorry for all the times I told my foul-mouthed co-workers to stuff a sock in their filth holes so we all didn't have to bear the stench. If I'd been nicer, God might have decided then and there to change His mind and grant salvation to any He'd intended to send to hell. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[JimfromOhio]

When it comes to teenagers, we are to know their culture and their interests in order to spread the Word so the Holy Spirit can convict their hearts to know Christ. The primary reason to become a participating member is not to gain a personal advantage, but to identify with the characteristics of biblical maturity and commitment to the mission and future of a local church.

Young people is our future and they will lead for Christ in the future. Our job is to reach out to them. The ministry's objective is to meet the emotional and spiritual needs of the afflicted people in practical ways while at the same time, Glorify God. God has a plan. God has a will. His main goal is to save souls. More are being saved through special minitries that are able to reach out to those who needs to hear that God is with them.

Being a Christian requires great care and a true knowledge of the Bible to distinguish a spiritual burden from doctrines irritation. We cannot close our minds to everything that is happening around us because if we do that, others are grieved by burdensome legalism. In our Christian fellowship (not individual), we must recognize that the Holy Spirit desires to take us and control us, and use us as instruments through which He can express Himself in the Christian community.

Ministry for Young People is different, special and unique.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Remember teenagers/young people are often afflicted with their growing pains and we need to have a ministry that show we understand.

 

[PETE_]

We can understand the secular world without condoning it. If we condon the things that are not Biblical we will not be seen as separate from the world. Beware the slippery slope of appeasement. How about a church bar for alcoholics? A XXX movie rental busuness? We cannot display the goodness of God if we are showing the same evil of the world. Good intentions are not an excuse to promate sinful behavior.

 

[JimfromOhio]

We can understand the secular world without condoning it. If we condon the things that are not Biblical we will not be seen as separate from the world. Beware the slippery slope of appeasement. How about a church bar for alcoholics? A XXX movie rental busuness? We cannot display the goodness of God if we are showing the same evil of the world. Good intentions are not an excuse to promate sinful behavior.

I agree. We should not live of the world and should not encourage teenagers to live the world. We are to understand their culture and give them alternatives to enjoy life without living of the world.

 

[bradfordl]

We are to understand their culture and give them alternatives to enjoy life without living of the world.

We understand their culture. Like all cultures that reject Christ it is one of sin and confusion. We would gain more respect from them, and bring greater glory to God, by NOT emulating their godless culture to "lure" them to the gospel, and simply live quiet, peaceable, honest lives as the Word instructs, and proclaiming the gospel undiluted when the oppurtunity arises.

Who convinced us that we need to "market" the gospel at all? Didn't Jesus say His sheep would hear His voice and follow? This whole idea of "bringing the gospel down to their level" is founded on the idea that God is not capable of saving His own without a little manipulative help from us spiritual giants. He wants to save them, but He needs us to "modernize" the gospel, or "make it relavent to today"? Hogwash. That's just typical human self-aggrandisement. We want to trust our clever manipulations instead of the plain (un-clever?) Word of God.

There's nothing new or modern about sin, sinners, or unregenerates, and there's nothing new about how God redeems His own out from among them - the faithful proclamation of the gospel. Compromising it's presentation with elements of pagan culture will never improve it's efficacy, it will only dilute it and the glory due it's Author.

 

[JimfromOhio]

We understand their culture. Like all cultures that reject Christ it is one of sin and confusion. We would gain more respect from them, and bring greater glory to God, by NOT emulating their godless culture to "lure" them to the gospel, and simply live quiet, peaceable, honest lives as the Word instructs, and proclaiming the gospel undiluted when the oppurtunity arises.

Who convinced us that we need to "market" the gospel at all? Didn't Jesus say His sheep would hear His voice and follow? This whole idea of "bringing the gospel down to their level" is founded on the idea that God is not capable of saving His own without a little manipulative help from us spiritual giants. He wants to save them, but He needs us to "modernize" the gospel, or "make it relavent to today"? Hogwash. That's just typical human self-aggrandisement. We want to trust our clever manipulations instead of the plain (un-clever?) Word of God.

There's nothing new or modern about sin, sinners, or unregenerates, and there's nothing new about how God redeems His own out from among them - the faithful proclamation of the gospel. Compromising it's presentation with elements of pagan culture will never improve it's efficacy, it will only dilute it and the glory due it's Author.

I used to think that way until I got involved in a deaf culture ministry. Its interesting how you can reach out to others once you understand them. Teenagers and young people are no different. Its not manipulating but rather allow them to feel comfortable without feeling looked upon like Pharisees telling them what to do.

 

[inchristalone221]

I think what we always need to remember is that Christianity is NOT at its heart a way of living or a set of morals. Christianity is a proclamation of what God has done in Christ. The morals are the secondary part of our faith, and they come as necessary effects of regeneration. We must not fall into the trap of teaching morals without teaching the gospel. That leads to Finney, God help us all.

 

[bradfordl]

I used to think that way until I got involved in a deaf culture ministry. Its interesting how you can reach out to others once you understand them. Teenagers and young people are no different. Its not manipulating but rather allow them to feel comfortable without feeling looked upon like Pharisees telling them what to do.

Learning sign language to convey the gospel is simply a form of communication. Learning metal guitar licks and spiking your hair to couch the gospel in that culture is manipulation. You're saying teenagers and young people are incapable of understanding their native tongue? Do you pretend to be deaf when you evangelize the deaf?

I've seen too many harmful and heretical things done out of a heart-felt, but uninformed and unbelieving, desire to do "good" to be sucked in to these types of compromising "ministries". The saddest thing about it is that it is usually led by bored adults wanting to relive a bit of their youth and who enjoy being popular with the kids. I'm very leery of those types, I've seen many scandals arise from adult men and women trying to get that close to kids.

BTW, I don't want to tell anyone's kids how to behave except my own. I believe that is a part of my duty as a father. I just don't need to take part in any pagan culture to "get the gospel across". And I can do that without being legalistic.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Learning sign language to convey the gospel is simply a form of communication. Learning metal guitar licks and spiking your hair to couch the gospel in that culture is manipulation. You're saying teenagers and young people are incapable of understanding their native tongue? Do you pretend to be deaf when you evangelize the deaf?

I've seen too many harmful and heretical things done out of a heart-felt, but uninformed and unbelieving, desire to do "good" to be sucked in to these types of compromising "ministries". The saddest thing about it is that it is usually led by bored adults wanting to relive a bit of their youth and who enjoy being popular with the kids. I'm very leery of those types, I've seen many scandals arise from adult men and women trying to get that close to kids.

BTW, I don't want to tell anyone's kids how to behave except my own. I believe that is a part of my duty as a father. I just don't need to take part in any pagan culture to "get the gospel across". And I can do that without being legalistic.

People think by knowing sign language you will know the deaf culture. Its more than that. Its not about the dark culture that we live in, but rather the culture that they are living in and that we are to help live in their culture in God's way.

 

[bradfordl]

People think by knowing sign language you will know the deaf culture. Its more than that. Its not about the dark culture that we live in, but rather the culture that they are living in and that we are to help live in their culture in God's way.

Where do you find the scriptural basis for teaching ANYONE how to "live in God's way" in whatever culture? I thought the commission was to proclaim the gospel that they may be saved if it is the will of God. Sounds a tad like legalism to me.

Again I ask, do you pretend to be deaf while evangelizing the deaf?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Where do you find the scriptural basis for teaching ANYONE how to "live in God's way" in whatever culture? I thought the commission was to proclaim the gospel that they may be saved if it is the will of God. Sounds a tad like legalism to me.

Again I ask, do you pretend to be deaf while evangelizing the deaf?

To answer your second question, I was born deaf but didn't really live in a deaf culture until I went to a deaf college.

To answer your first question. scripturally, "nation" from the greek word "Ethnos". Strongs defines Ethnos as a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together as a company, troop, swarm. A multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus the human family a tribe, nation, people group (culture). There are many cultures in this world because there are cultures who will follow their conscience, feelings, beliefs and cultural preferences. Disability is another form of culture.

I had my personal battle relating cultural differences within the Christian community. They are called "Stumble Causers" because it is grievous for us to cause others to stumble. One of our Great Commission is to disciple young people (culture) the most basic way to know Christ. Teaching Christians to rely on the Holy Spirit and that only the Holy Spirit can lead a person to Christ.

 

[bradfordl]

OK, now I have a little more information. So what would you think of a hearing person pretending to be deaf to evangelize the deaf?

My only experience with a "deaf culture" was some work I did at Gallaudet University in DC. The culture there was somewhat disconcerting, almost as though a hearing person was not welcome, and there seemed to be activist mindset.

But to address the youth outreach thing, I've seen too many adults dress up like kids, grow their hair or cut it to fit in with kids, learn a few guitar licks to impress the kids, and in the end just become old guys trying to look like kids and involved in questionable stuff. My daughter's (12) youth group decided to discuss pre- and extra-marital sex. I know the folks running this, and the last thing I'd willingly entrust to them is discussing those subjects with my daughter. When confronted, they said they just wanted the group's dicussions to be "relevant". What hogwash. These folks were just engaging in prurient conversations with children - OTHER people's children. I'll be the one to decide when and how my daughter will be taught about such things, not some slob getting a rise out of talking dirty to little girls.

That's the kind of thing I see more than any real evangelism, and it's sad. They want to "push the envelope" to be cool in the eyes of kids, and there is no real evangelistic value in it.

Preach the Gospel. Leave the marketing to the entertainment industry.

 

[JimfromOhio]

OK, now I have a little more information. So what would you think of a hearing person pretending to be deaf to evangelize the deaf?

My only experience with a "deaf culture" was some work I did at Gallaudet University in DC. The culture there was somewhat disconcerting, almost as though a hearing person was not welcome, and there seemed to be activist mindset.

But to address the youth outreach thing, I've seen too many adults dress up like kids, grow their hair or cut it to fit in with kids, learn a few guitar licks to impress the kids, and in the end just become old guys trying to look like kids and involved in questionable stuff. My daughter's (12) youth group decided to discuss pre- and extra-marital sex. I know the folks running this, and the last thing I'd willingly entrust to them is discussing those subjects with my daughter. When confronted, they said they just wanted the group's dicussions to be "relevant". What hogwash. These folks were just engaging in prurient conversations with children - OTHER people's children. I'll be the one to decide when and how my daughter will be taught about such things, not some slob getting a rise out of talking dirty to little girls.

That's the kind of thing I see more than any real evangelism, and it's sad. They want to "push the envelope" to be cool in the eyes of kids, and there is no real evangelistic value in it.

Preach the Gospel. Leave the marketing to the entertainment industry.

I don't think anyone really understands what I am trying to say but anyway, I am standing on what I believe of getting familiar with the culture in order to reach out to them. Fitting into their culture is not the goal but in order to communicate with them, understanding their culture is important. People can know sign language and know it very well does not mean you know the deaf culture that well. Many deaf people may not accept me because I didn't grow up knowing sign language and I can communicate with the hearing world. So, you could say I am stuck between deaf and hearing worlds.

Here's one of many good articles regarding understanding the deaf culture:
LISTENING IN ON DEAF CULTURE

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have been involved in a youth ministry years ago and learned great deal how to communicate with them by understanding their culture.

Great resources of information regarding Youth Ministry:
Christian Youth Organizations

 

[lmnop9876]

We accomplish more what?

I thought the reason we deal with people in a loving manner was that we glorify God by it. I had no idea that God was going to amend His eternal plan based on how sweetly we aquiesce to the vulgar mouthings of the unregenerate! Now I'm really sorry for all the times I told my foul-mouthed co-workers to stuff a sock in their filth holes so we all didn't have to bear the stench. If I'd been nicer, God might have decided then and there to change His mind and grant salvation to any He'd intended to send to hell. Oh well, live and learn.

yeah, we accomplish more if we talk to people in love and compassion, realizing they probably have no idea whatsoever of the reasons behind our stance against their language, &c. i'm not talking about filthy talk, filthy jokes, taking God's name in vain, i'm talking about "bad" language, that often has no meaning whatsoever except to add force to a sentence. if we speak up when people take God's Name in vain or speak unchastely, and explain the rationale behind why we think the way we do, we're more likely to be respected than if we only say something half the time someone says a "cuss-word" that we deem to be offensive, and don't speak when someone else says another alternative to that word, meaning the exact same thing.

 

[lmnop9876]

I hope and pray that my daughter is as level-headed, mature, and as true to the principals of faith and godliness as I see some 18 year old girls around here are.... (1 down 17 to go)

Bottom line with the topic of conversation going on between the two teenagers on this thread is simply that the world will always think Christians are legalistic. Trying to cowtow to an unbeliever's idea of morality or to his or her definition of Christianity is as fruitless as it is dangerous to that person's soul.

Speaking in love should be our first course of action - but there does comes a point when you have to take a stand and refrain from the company of wicked folks who have no respect for our feelings in regards to perverse and unwholesome talk or our faith. It is friendship with the world - and should be avoided if it draws you in or continuously offends you. And - unwholesome talk should offend you....

unwholesome talk does offend me, what i'm talking about is the use of words such as the f-word, &c. in general speech, not in the way they're originally meant. if we're going to say something about that, then we have to be consistent and say something about every euphemism for those words that someone ever uses. if i say, "i'm not going to be friends with anyone who says (insert list of unclean words here)" then i should also say "i'm not going to be friends with anyone who says (insert list of euphemisms for unclean words here)".
see what i'm getting at? i'm not saying this language is acceptable, but we do have to be completely consistent to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. if we consistently say something when people take God's Name in vain, we may actually get somewhere.
we should also say something when people are talking in a way that breaks the 7th commandment, don't get me wrong. but, even in that case, we have to be careful that we don't have double-standards, e.g. say something when someone tells a dirty joke, but don't say something when someone talks about living with their boyfriend/girlfriend, or saying something when someone mentions they're homosexual, but not something when someone talks about other sexual sins.

 

[bradfordl]

unwholesome talk does offend me, what i'm talking about is the use of words such as the f-word, &c. in general speech, not in the way they're originally meant. if we're going to say something about that, then we have to be consistent and say something about every euphemism for those words that someone ever uses. if i say, "i'm not going to be friends with anyone who says (insert list of unclean words here)" then i should also say "i'm not going to be friends with anyone who says (insert list of euphemisms for unclean words here)".
see what i'm getting at? i'm not saying this language is acceptable, but we do have to be completely consistent to avoid accusations of hypocrisy. if we consistently say something when people take God's Name in vain, we may actually get somewhere.
we should also say something when people are talking in a way that breaks the 7th commandment, don't get me wrong. but, even in that case, we have to be careful that we don't have double-standards, e.g. say something when someone tells a dirty joke, but don't say something when someone talks about living with their boyfriend/girlfriend, or saying something when someone mentions they're homosexual, but not something when someone talks about other sexual sins.

It's probably just me, but I don't have the time or energy to rebuke and reprove every pagan that spews obscenity of any kind, whether blasphemous or just a word meant to "add force to a sentence". That would be an overwhelming endeavor. And to be honest, I'm not innocent of the occasional epithet myself, in spite of my best intentions. I just don't want to pretend that its OK or just a figure of speech. And if anyone asks me, I'll tell them that its not OK, whether it was me or them that said it. And if they are being offensive, I'll tell them that, too. That's not being hypocritical, just honest. If I do it, I'll apologize and stop. If they do, I'd expect the same, and will ask for it. I see no need to wrestle with myself over the matter. None of this is going to affect the efficacy of the Gospel, nor my witness to it.

We don't have to be delectable to convey the Gospel, just coherent.

 

[inchristalone221]

i'm not talking about filthy talk, filthy jokes, taking God's name in vain, i'm talking about "bad" language, that often has no meaning whatsoever except to add force to a sentence

This is where you and I have to disagree old boy. Such "bad words" as that I deem acceptable. They are culturally taboo, yes, but I do not allow culture to dictate my morals.