Interesting Scenario

[Jon_]

that technique used on David, where you present the problem as somebody elses' & ask your pastor what HE would do.
Say for instance, you know of a church where christian films were shown in their spare room. After awhile, secular films with uplifting themes were shown to broaden appeal & raise interest & attendance.
Before too long, more controversial films were shown to spark debate about social issues that require spiritual solutions, yada yada by the way, "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" is showing there this weekend, can I take your daughter to it?

Ooo, that's sneaky, Rick! Hmm, I just might try that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Yes, I'd have a problem with it. Talk to the Session first, then Presby if necessary.

CC&E

 

[McWilliams]

Bottom line is what does scripture tell us the function of the church is to be?
If you scroll down in this article it tells how to discern when a church begins to move away from its true base and away from the scriptural directive.
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_73.html

I dont think all the entertainment in the world, of any kind fulfills the job of the church and/or is pleasing to God! Perhaps that reflects my age but I'd prefer to think it reflects God's design for His church, which purpose is to 'preach the Word'!

 

[Elderone]

jon_

If it is necessary to go to the presbytery just a reminder:

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." (Deuteronomy 19:15)

A preponderance of evidence is even more important when the brother under the cloud is a church officer. "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."
(1 Timothy 5:19)

 

[Jon_]

jon_

If it is necessary to go to the presbytery just a reminder:

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." (Deuteronomy 19:15)

A preponderance of evidence is even more important when the brother under the cloud is a church officer. "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."
(1 Timothy 5:19)

Surely. There also arises another interesting element to this issue, though. The show featuring the blasphemous bands is posted for the whole world to see on their website. If one were to print out a copy of that calendar and present that into evidence, is it then still necessary for there to be two or more "witnesses" to the booking? Does not the whole presbytery become a witness, as each of them are enabled to see precisely what I have seen?

No doubt that other eye-witnesses would be necessary if further elucidation of the goings-on at these shows were requested, but is not published information self-authenticating testimony?

Even more, I am not so sure that I am accusing any one particular person of sin, rather that I am opposing the booking practices of the venue. Perhaps the session would hold one or more persons responsible for that, but from my own position, how can I make that determination? Is it not the institution itself that is responsible? Maybe I need to do some more investigative work on the issue. Perhaps I should give them a call and ask who is in charge of booking.

Here is where it stands right now. I have participated in these shows twice. Once I performed and once I simply observed. Now, when I performed, the bill was all Christian bands and we had a moment of prayer before the show. During the show, there was no mention of the church, Christ, or anything vaguely religious insofar as I am able to recall (the bands' lyrics being the obvious exception). Same thing applies to the show I attended, but I do not know if there was prayer beforehand because I was not playing that night. That was three years ago.

Now, even back in those days they were having mixed shows: Christian bands and secular bands. They now currently have a death metal show scheduled for May 11 with the headlining bands Necrophagist and Cattle Decapitation. My question would be, "Has a public sin yet been committed?" I would actually like to prevent this show from happening, not to bring anyone to the mat for allowing it to go on. Is it enough simply that they have booked these horrible bands to raise the issue with Presbytery (if necessary) or do I have to wait for the shameful act to take place?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[McWilliams]

Prevention is the key!
As long ago when I discussed some potential infraction with one of my kids and they would say: I havent done that! Then I would say that I just wanted to be certain they didnt, thats why it was being discussed, so the limits or boundaries would be understood by all of us!
I'd suggest using what leverage you have to be sure the band doesnt appear, doesnt play, doesnt get the satisfaction of blaspheming God's property or His people!

 

[Jon_]

Prevention is the key!
As long ago when I discussed some potential infraction with one of my kids and they would say: I havent done that! Then I would say that I just wanted to be certain they didnt, thats why it was being discussed, so the limits or boundaries would be understood by all of us!
I'd suggest using what leverage you have to be sure the band doesnt appear, doesnt play, doesnt get the satisfaction of blaspheming God's property or His people!

Yes, that is precisely my intention. I want to do everything I can to prevent this band from performing. I really have no interest in seeing the pastor or the session censured for allowing such a horrible event to occur. I'd rather them be scolded for a lack of judgment concerning the booking of the band. I believe far fewer souls will be impacted by that.

Imagine the impact that kind of a show could have on unsuspecting Christian kids? They're attending the show because it's hosted by the church. Undoubtedly they assume it will be safe and approved by Christians. While some Christians might not be affected by secular music, being stronger of conscience than others, that is not an assumption the church can make! There are some people that I have attended church with before that would be mortified by something like this. And what will the parents of these kids say when they come home and tell them about the show? If they are from different congregations, the problem then becomes more and more magnified for the hosting congregation.

The more I think about the possible consequences of this event, the more determined I am to do something about it. Obviously, that is, because I am neither a member nor an attender. But I simpy cannot abide this to happen without speaking out against it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[theFijian]

Yes! Death metal sucks!!

Actually the films thing isn't as cut and dried for me. I think we are aware that 'secular' films can carry themes which make good points and can open up useful avenues for discussion and witness.

 

[Imblessed]

I think you are heading in precisely the right direction, Jon. Please do all you can to prevent these shows from actually happening. I would most definately have a big problem with something like that going on.

I belong to a seeker sensitive church, and we have the same setup in the summers. It's called "SNAC"(saturday night at crossroads). However, the venues have always been very tasteful. the 'secular' bands have been like a blues band, or a celtic group, stuff like that. The only rock that was played was christian, even if only nominally. One difference was that these "snac" nights always occured after church on Saturday nights in the cafe, so they were basically open only for church members and the guests they'd bring. The idea was for you to invite someone on a saturday night and after church they'd get to hear some good music. The idea was to get them to church first. There was no outside advertising (maybe something on the website..)

Anyway, I can say that although I am pretty neutral about these shows, if they started allowing bands like what you describe, I'd be very upset, and would want it to stop.

I have to say though, that the big IF is if they were actually doing some serious outreach, like handing out pamplets, or talking out the gospel before and/or after the show. Even so, I think I'd still have a problem with it. There just seems to be soo many other better ways to do outreach, than to accept and encourage that type of music or attitude.

 

[edie19]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon,

Just curious what the outcome of this was.

edie

 

[McWilliams]

Yes, thanks Edie for bringing that back up as it was such a concern!!

 

[Nadiine]

Hey, that sounds like the worship service of our local PCA Church, except they have "pole dancers."

​

 

[theFijian]

Hey, that sounds like the worship service of our local PCA Church, except they have "pole dancers."

Dancers from Poland eh?

 

[bradfordl]

Hey, that sounds like the worship service of our local PCA Church, except they have "pole dancers."

Sounds like the PCA Church I left some years back. They are falling apart now and a new plant of a more conservative nature is forming nearby. God is faithful.

 

[lmnop9876]

Yikes! To me, one of the greatest witnesses that I have is that I, as a Christian, am different than my co-workers, classmates, etc. For example, one young man that I work with has a very foul mouth. We have a deal that if he wants to talk to me, he can't use any offensive language. I often tell him that his language is offensive to God and that he needs to repent. He respects me for being different and for my religious beliefs. Now, what if I just started speaking/cursing like he does? Would he respect me anymore? I'd be just like him and he wouldn't see any need to repent and believe on Christ when a so-called Christian lives the same way that he does. So, in answer to your question, what does the presence of those bands say about the church and about Christianity in general? If Christians are just like everyone else, then why should they repent and believe (or what even do they need to repent of?)? Christ tells us to be holy, even as He is holy. Holiness is something that really sets Christians apart from the rest of the world. We need to be set apart. As far as I am concerned, the end does NOT justify the means. Even if the point is to get people saved, that does not mean that sinful behavior is the way to do it. . .I think that those means would even hinder the work of the gospel. Remembe Uzzah as he attempted to save the Ark of God from falling? He was trying to do a good thing (save the Ark), but despite his intentions, God killed him for his disobedience. There is a line between the Christian life and secular life and Christians seeking holiness should stay as far as possible away from that line. To skirt close to it or even cross it, even for a good purpose, is very dangerous indeed.

first, what is his foul language? is it taking God's name in vain? if it isn't, we have to be careful that we're not being too legalistic, like, you say the f-word, and you can't be around me, you can't talk to me if you say those words.
second, i don't agree with christian "praise and worship" bands, it's wrong to be making money out of "praising God." Christian bands should be singing songs that bring messages of hope to the world, talking about injustices, the darkness and gloom that people experience in their lives, the hope they can find in the Light, &c. &c., while not compromising 1. Christian beliefs, 2. Christian testimony, 3. Christian lifestyle and practice. i would much rather listen to secular music with a real message than "Christian" music about "Jesus is my all, I want Him to hold me in His arms all day long" and "baby, I love you, yeah yeah, you saved me from despair, yeah, Jeeeesssuuus, I love you." &c. &c.
the same goes with movies. what is a 'Christian' movie? who decides? why not watch a secular movie as part of your church's outreach, provided the same three conditions apply as for music? if people are going to come in and have an opportunity to talk about Christianity, and how the Holy Spirit has changed, and is changing, our lives, how, if they believe in Christ, He can change their lives too.

 

[Erinwilcox]

first, what is his foul language? is it taking God's name in vain? if it isn't, we have to be careful that we're not being too legalistic, like, you say the f-word, and you can't be around me, you can't talk to me if you say those words.
.

I won't go into a list of his language...

But, I will say this: in our culture, there are certain words that are known to be offensive and which are universally known to be bad. Parents, Christian or not, will often not let their children watch a particular movie if they know it to be filled with such words. Perhaps it is different for guys than it is for girls, but I endeavor to keep my mind and my mouth pure. We are told in the Bible to think on things that are pure. Also, we are told that from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. What does it say about someone who frequently uses such foul words? If I am constantly exposed to it, then what is the likelyhood that my mind will begin to think it? Then, once thought, the speaking of it will be next.

Now, I don't believe I made this clear in that post, but I would definitely NOT make such a deal with just anyone. I have other co-workers who use the same language and I have not and probably will not make the same deal with them. I still speak with them, but perhaps not as often as I would otherwise. I think that it depends on the relationship. I felt, and still do, that I had a good enough relationship with this individual that I could ask him to please try not to curse in my presence...the deal came from that. Perhaps because of this deal, we have had many discussions on religious topics and on the topic of his soul. He had enough respect for me and enough desire to not offend a friend that he has pretty faithfully endeavored to keep his tongue from evil when I am present. I greatly appreciate this and he knows it...I think that he knows that my parents appreciate it as well. And I don't think that it's legalistic to seek holiness, not that you were exactly implying that, but seeking holiness was what the whole thing was about.

 

[lmnop9876]

I won't go into a list of his language...

But, I will say this: in our culture, there are certain words that are known to be offensive and which are universally known to be bad. Parents, Christian or not, will often not let their children watch a particular movie if they know it to be filled with such words. Perhaps it is different for guys than it is for girls, but I endeavor to keep my mind and my mouth pure. We are told in the Bible to think on things that are pure. Also, we are told that from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. What does it say about someone who frequently uses such foul words? If I am constantly exposed to it, then what is the likelyhood that my mind will begin to think it? Then, once thought, the speaking of it will be next.

Now, I don't believe I made this clear in that post, but I would definitely NOT make such a deal with just anyone. I have other co-workers who use the same language and I have not and probably will not make the same deal with them. I still speak with them, but perhaps not as often as I would otherwise. I think that it depends on the relationship. I felt, and still do, that I had a good enough relationship with this individual that I could ask him to please try not to curse in my presence...the deal came from that. Perhaps because of this deal, we have had many discussions on religious topics and on the topic of his soul. He had enough respect for me and enough desire to not offend a friend that he has pretty faithfully endeavored to keep his tongue from evil when I am present. I greatly appreciate this and he knows it...I think that he knows that my parents appreciate it as well. And I don't think that it's legalistic to seek holiness, not that you were exactly implying that, but seeking holiness was what the whole thing was about.

agreed...words have meanings. however, words have different meanings for different people and in different places. using God's Name is different, although people still have different perspectives on certain "milder" alternatives. e.g. if i know that the word "jeez" is short for Jesus, and I say it anyway, knowing that, i have taken God's Name in vain. if a person doesn't know that, and says that, then it's just an empty word, an expression.
e.g. if a person uses the f-word as an adjective, nothing more than a forceful expression, not directly related to its original meaning, what is the difference between that person using that word and someone else using "fricking", "freaking", "flamming," or any other euphemism in the same context? would you say something to someone who used those words? seeking holiness is important, but it doesn't mean we need to give people an excuse to speak against us and against God as "goody-two-shoes" who won't even speak to a person because they use a word that offends us. we accomplish much more by dealing in love, when a person uses God's Name in vain, then is when I would speak. we need to understand the deeper principal meaning, the spirit of the law, behind the ten commandments, e.g. the third commandment is about love for God, because God has created us and redeemed us, we regard His Name as precious and holy, something to be used in a reverent manner.
if we just say "excuse me, I'm a Christian, I don't want to hear you using foul language like that" then we'll just leave the person scratching their head (and enforcing their misconceptions of Christians as legalistic). otoh, if we say, "I am a Christian, because God loves me, I don't use His Name shallowly or emptily," we may actually get somewhere.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I've found that it isn't so much using the Lord's name in vain as it was other very offensive words. And, rest assured, I didn't just dump it on him...he knows why and we have had a few conversations on the topic.

 

[inchristalone221]

Yes, i have a problem with this, but it may not be the problem that you think.

First off, WE are the sanctuaries, the facility is merely a place where the body of believers assemble to worship.

Second off, who told these people that evangelical outreach was the responsibility of the corporate body? i believe that the "great commission" states Go ye therefore and teach all nations, ...(Matt 28:19a KJV). It doesn't say let the church do it.

Purpose? There's only two purposes of the church:

1. To worship God in Spirit and in Truth
2. To equip the corporate body to carry out the mandates of evangelism.

Anything that does not support those two mandates is illegitimate.

As for what i would do... aside from notifying the Pastor and the Session, i'd notify the Presbytery that particular congregation is a member of, and provide some evidence of the happenings in that congregation.

CDL, I have to say I don't recall reading a post of yours I disliked.

This is exactly my opinion (if I understand you correctly).

As for the issue of using the Lord's name in vain, I would remark simply that expressions of shock (i.e. "Oh my God") and such things are more than likely not what was in view when the commandment was given. The commandment was addressed more to making vows in the name of God (i.e. "as surely as the Lord lives I will...[do such and such a thing]) and breaking them.

I'm not saying such expressions are God honoring, just pointing out a much overlooked thing.

 

[AndOne]

I hope and pray that my daughter is as level-headed, mature, and as true to the principals of faith and godliness as I see some 18 year old girls around here are.... (1 down 17 to go)

Bottom line with the topic of conversation going on between the two teenagers on this thread is simply that the world will always think Christians are legalistic. Trying to cowtow to an unbeliever's idea of morality or to his or her definition of Christianity is as fruitless as it is dangerous to that person's soul.

Speaking in love should be our first course of action - but there does comes a point when you have to take a stand and refrain from the company of wicked folks who have no respect for our feelings in regards to perverse and unwholesome talk or our faith. It is friendship with the world - and should be avoided if it draws you in or continuously offends you. And - unwholesome talk should offend you....