Interesting Scenario

[Jon_]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[HamletsChoice]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hey, that sounds like the worship service of our local PCA Church, except they have "pole dancers."

 

[edie19]

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I can answer that question in one word. . . . .

yes

 

[Foundthelight]

I can answer that question in one word. . . . .

yes

I agree!!!

 

[Elderone]

Yes, and would let the pastor and session know in no uncertain terms.

 

[ClementofRome]

Will the elders be passing out tracks to the the attendees? Outreach seems to be outstretched with this one...however, Jesus would have probably worked the mosh pit.

 

[Jon_]

Will the elders be passing out tracks to the the attendees? Outreach seems to be outstretched with this one...however, Jesus would have probably worked the mosh pit.

That's the thing. At these shows, there is no "outreach" being done. It just so happens that a local congregation does do this and my band played there twice. I have first-hand knowledge of what goes on at these shows. There is no preaching going on; there is no literature being handed out; it might as well be a secular venue.

I mean, seriously, do you expect a sermon before Necrophagist gets up there and performs, "Mutilate the Stillborn" (an actual song of theirs)?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Yes, and would let the pastor and session know in no uncertain terms.

That's what I was planning on doing: writing the pastor and the session.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

For reference:

The congregation: http://www.valleysprings.org/

The venue: http://www.undergroundcafe-roseville.com/home.php

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ClementofRome]

That's what I was planning on doing: writing the pastor and the session.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I am certain that you will get a blah blah blah,....being in the world, but not of the world....etc.

This seems to be like a Youth Pastor's great intentions gone totally nuts and the Elders don't have a clue.

Or maybe I am just an old you know what...

 

[Erinwilcox]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Yikes! To me, one of the greatest witnesses that I have is that I, as a Christian, am different than my co-workers, classmates, etc. For example, one young man that I work with has a very foul mouth. We have a deal that if he wants to talk to me, he can't use any offensive language. I often tell him that his language is offensive to God and that he needs to repent. He respects me for being different and for my religious beliefs. Now, what if I just started speaking/cursing like he does? Would he respect me anymore? I'd be just like him and he wouldn't see any need to repent and believe on Christ when a so-called Christian lives the same way that he does. So, in answer to your question, what does the presence of those bands say about the church and about Christianity in general? If Christians are just like everyone else, then why should they repent and believe (or what even do they need to repent of?)? Christ tells us to be holy, even as He is holy. Holiness is something that really sets Christians apart from the rest of the world. We need to be set apart. As far as I am concerned, the end does NOT justify the means. Even if the point is to get people saved, that does not mean that sinful behavior is the way to do it. . .I think that those means would even hinder the work of the gospel. Remembe Uzzah as he attempted to save the Ark of God from falling? He was trying to do a good thing (save the Ark), but despite his intentions, God killed him for his disobedience. There is a line between the Christian life and secular life and Christians seeking holiness should stay as far as possible away from that line. To skirt close to it or even cross it, even for a good purpose, is very dangerous indeed.

 

[seekingpurity047]

Yes, that is quite a problem.

 

[Elderone]

I am certain that you will get a blah blah blah,....being in the world, but not of the world....etc.

This seems to be like a Youth Pastor's great intentions gone totally nuts and the Elders don't have a clue.

Or maybe I am just an old you know what...

I agree with Clement, but give them "what for" just so they know there are some of us who don't approve of their mixed up evangelism. And I AM an old you know what about things like this, and if the Elders of this church don't know what's going on they should NOT be officers let alone Elders.

 

[edie19]

We had a long time church member leave our congregation last summer. One of her reasons reminds me a little of Jon's scenario.

We have a gentleman member who teaches ballroom dancing. The above mentioned member wanted him to teach interested church members and asked the pastor could she use the big room (her words) for the classes. Now our building isn't huge - we have a classroom/fellowship room that's probably 15 x 30 and we have our sanctuary (not sure how big it is). Pastor said classes were ok - that it would be fine to use the classroom, just be sure the tables were in place for Sunday mornings. Come to find out she meant the sanctuary. When he said no - she accused him of being legalistic. Now she had other issues (which IMNSHO were equally strange) but that was on her list for being dissatisfied with the church and looking elsewhere.

edie

 

[JimfromOhio]

Its an outreach ministry, is it? The purpose is to bring in "who"?

Christians or non-Christians?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Let's say you attend a Presbyterian church (PCA, for example). Let's say that church has an outreach program where it operates a cafe and a stage where bands can play. Let's say that originally, only nominally Christian bands are invited to play there. Then let's say you started featuring secular bands in the same genre, just in order to draw in non-Christians. Then let's say you start having full-blown secular shows featuring death metal bands like Necrophagist (someone who eats dead people), Cattle Decapitation (self-explanatory), and other such outright blasphemous bands. Let's further point out that this cafe is attached to the sanctuary where your congregants worship on Sundays.

Would you have a problem with this?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Yes, i have a problem with this, but it may not be the problem that you think.

First off, WE are the sanctuaries, the facility is merely a place where the body of believers assemble to worship.

Second off, who told these people that evangelical outreach was the responsibility of the corporate body? i believe that the "great commission" states Go ye therefore and teach all nations, ...(Matt 28:19a KJV). It doesn't say let the church do it.

Purpose? There's only two purposes of the church:

1. To worship God in Spirit and in Truth
2. To equip the corporate body to carry out the mandates of evangelism.

Anything that does not support those two mandates is illegitimate.

As for what i would do... aside from notifying the Pastor and the Session, i'd notify the Presbytery that particular congregation is a member of, and provide some evidence of the happenings in that congregation.

 

[erin74]

I've been reading a great book called "Youth Evangelism" by Ken Moser.

He makes a great point about these kind of 'funnel' methods of evangelism. You know the ones - where you put loads of effort into running an 'outreach'/entertainment event, and that people will funnel into church events and bible studies. The thing is, they don't work.

They require very large amounts of energy and at the end of the day what have you acheived - you've sent the message that christians are on about somethign other than christianity.

His solution - be on about the bible. Teenagers are passionate people - give them something to be really passionate about - the gospel. He gives heaps of ideas of how to make youth group christian without just being one big bible talk. So run an evangelism spot, teach apologetics in a practical way, have a mission spot, etc.

It's an excellent book, and I highly recommend it to anyone who is involved in evangelism - and not just to youth. It has changed the way I think about women's evangelism too.

 

[JJB]

Pray and write your letter, Jon. I, too, would have a problem with that venue.

 

[Rick Otto]

that technique used on David, where you present the problem as somebody elses' & ask your pastor what HE would do.
Say for instance, you know of a church where christian films were shown in their spare room. After awhile, secular films with uplifting themes were shown to broaden appeal & raise interest & attendance.
Before too long, more controversial films were shown to spark debate about social issues that require spiritual solutions, yada yada by the way, "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" is showing there this weekend, can I take your daughter to it?

 

[Jon_]

Yes, i have a problem with this, but it may not be the problem that you think.

First off, WE are the sanctuaries, the facility is merely a place where the body of believers assemble to worship.

Second off, who told these people that evangelical outreach was the responsibility of the corporate body? i believe that the "great commission" states Go ye therefore and teach all nations, ...(Matt 28:19a KJV). It doesn't say let the church do it.

Purpose? There's only two purposes of the church:

1. To worship God in Spirit and in Truth
2. To equip the corporate body to carry out the mandates of evangelism.

Anything that does not support those two mandates is illegitimate.

As for what i would do... aside from notifying the Pastor and the Session, i'd notify the Presbytery that particular congregation is a member of, and provide some evidence of the happenings in that congregation.

No, I understand where you're coming from perfectly, and I agree. This is one of the reasons why I am opposed to "seeker-sensitive" churches that cater their services to godless visitors. Church is for Christians, not for non-Christians. And inviting death metal bands to perform at your church in order to bring in non-Christians so you can "love them" is an utterly stupid idea.

My hope is that the congretation simply made a poor choice for their youth pastor or whatever pastor is in charge of this venue and the pastor and session is not overseeing the operation as closely as they should. My hope is that the response to my letter will be, "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. It was never our understanding or intention to allow bands such as these to perform. We will definitely address this, etc." However, if they simply write it off, I will send it to Presbytery. This kind of conduct is simply unbecoming of a Presbyterian congregation. I wouldn't even expect this from the apostate PCUSA. Even they would deem these bands "too extreme" and "intolerant" to perform at their facilities.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon