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Inter-denomination restrictions on communion??!

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Lynn73

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Oh so its comes down to this. When all else fails you just tell me to **** off, well I only posted in defence of the catholic faith and in coutesy replyed to posts that addressed me, my posts or or the catholic faith.

As for my faith Icon, do you say Catholics are not Christian?

Certain among us can't answer that question without possibly breaking the rules. Ask yourself if they believe the true biblical gospel or not or if what they proclaim is the other gospel the Bible warns us about. I'll say this. I think there are probably individual Catholics who are truly Christian, but it's in spite of the religion they belong to, imho. Their way of salvation isn't the same as I see taught in Scripture. But you're entitled to your opinion, of course.
 
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KATHXOYMENOC

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If you are Catholic, why does your faith icon not display that?

If you are arguing for or debating Catholicism against Protestantism and criticizing Protestant and non-denominational beliefs, why are you doing it in the Non-Denominational Forum?
Oh so its comes down to this. When all else fails you just tell me to **** off, well I only posted in defence of the catholic faith and in coutesy replyed to posts that addressed me, my posts or or the catholic faith.

As for my faith Icon, do you say Catholics are not Christian?

I asked you a question. I didn't tell you "to **** off".

What does "****" mean?

Nor do I say "Catholics are not Christian". Why are you asking?
 
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threeinone

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Certain among us can't answer that question without possibly breaking the rules. Ask yourself if they believe the true biblical gospel or not or if what they proclaim is the other gospel the Bible warns us about. I'll say this. I think there are probably individual Catholics who are truly Christian, but it's in spite of the religion they belong to, imho. Their way of salvation isn't the same as I see taught in Scripture. But you're entitled to your opinion, of course.

Just totally interested in your post. Very curious.....just curious. Why would you think that Catholics are not Christian? I am not looking for an argument. I have been Catholic all my life and never for a moment did I think I was not Christian. I, as well as all Catholics I know of, believe in Jesus as our Savior, believe in God, for the most part live good Christian lives and for the most part are like all other Christians. What is not Christian? As I say, I am just curious since I haven't been going to church anyway so you can't offend me.:scratch:

Edit - I just remembered that my faith icon is not Catholic either. The reason being, as others have also said, that I found that when I displayed my Catholic icon, I was treated in a different manner that I didn't like and by all definitions in the rules, I am Christian so I displayed the Christian icon and was immediately treated as an equal. It is not to be dishonest or hiding.
 
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mont974x4

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INRI2, what constitutes a saint? How are we saved? How do we repent?

BTW, I rest fully in His grace and mercy and the knowledge of me in Christ and Christ in me. I am bought by His precious blood and no view of church history will change that.
 
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KATHXOYMENOC

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INRI2, what constitutes a saint? How are we saved? How do we repent?

BTW, I rest fully in His grace and mercy and the knowledge of me in Christ and Christ in me. I am bought by His precious blood and no view of church history will change that.

Plus, you and INRI2 have the same faith icon and church - i.e., "Christian -" - so you are both the same, faithwise! ;)
 
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mont974x4

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Just totally interested in your post. Very curious.....just curious. Why would you think that Catholics are not Christian? I am not looking for an argument. I have been Catholic all my life and never for a moment did I think I was not Christian. I, as well as all Catholics I know of, believe in Jesus as our Savior, believe in God, for the most part live good Christian lives and for the most part are like all other Christians. What is not Christian? As I say, I am just curious since I haven't been going to church anyway so you can't offend me.:scratch:


(trying to answer gently to aid in understanding and not wanting to get into trouble or offend anyone)
Many have a problem thinking of the RCC as fully Christian because of some traditional teaching and practices that include but are not limited too:
the idea if needing a pope and priests to confess to
praying to Mary and the "saints"
infant baptism
the process of determining sainthood
treating writings and decisions of the church (the pope) as being equal to Scripture


Please understand this isn't meant to be a slam on individuals or their faith. It is meant to share our concerns with some teachings and traditions of the RCC that we see as having no real biblical support. If you fully rest in Christ alone as your means to salvation, I love you as my brother and sister and hope we can discuss these issues in love in order to be as good Bereans exploring the Word together. If and when we disagree I hope we can disagree in love and continue in a way the glorifies God.


Jay
 
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threeinone

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(trying to answer gently to aid in understanding and not wanting to get into trouble or offend anyone)
Many have a problem thinking of the RCC as fully Christian because of some traditional teaching and practices that include but are not limited too:
the idea if needing a pope and priests to confess to
praying to Mary and the "saints"
infant baptism
the process of determining sainthood
treating writings and decisions of the church (the pope) as being equal to Scripture


Please understand this isn't meant to be a slam on individuals or their faith. It is meant to share our concerns with some teachings and traditions of the RCC that we see as having no real biblical support. If you fully rest in Christ alone as your means to salvation, I love you as my brother and sister and hope we can discuss these issues in love in order to be as good Bereans exploring the Word together. If and when we disagree I hope we can disagree in love and continue in a way the glorifies God.


Jay

No problem, no offence Jay (nice name)

Would you define Christian for me? What are the prerequisites for being a Christian? I am not asking you for a definition of non-Christian. I am asking for a definition of Christian....a definition that covers being Christian.

I am not looking for trouble either or anything other than curiosity.

three
 
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mont974x4

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No problem, no offence Jay (nice name)

Would you define Christian for me? What are the prerequisites for being a Christian? I am not asking you for a definition of non-Christian. I am asking for a definition of Christian....a definition that covers being Christian.

I am not looking for trouble either or anything other than curiosity.

three

Thanks. :)

Christian literally means a follower of Christ. To become a Christian one must believe in Him as Lord and Savior. This has eveyrthing to do with faith and nothing to do with works. It is His work on the cross that justifies me, I can not earn salvation. Sadly there will be a lot of "good" people in hell.

Works (fruit) being the outward evidence that we are His...as Romans puts it we are no longer slaves to sin but to righteousness. While we may slip up and sin we are no longer living in a lifestyle of sin. We live rightly because we want to honor and glorify Him.

lol, wow talk about off topic but I love these discussions.

I am working on my house so I will be off and on.
 
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threeinone

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Thanks. :)

Christian literally means a follower of Christ. To become a Christian one must believe in Him as Lord and Savior. This has eveyrthing to do with faith and nothing to do with works. It is His work on the cross that justifies me, I can not earn salvation. Sadly there will be a lot of "good" people in hell.

Works (fruit) being the outward evidence that we are His...as Romans puts it we are no longer slaves to sin but to righteousness. While we may slip up and sin we are no longer living in a lifestyle of sin. We live rightly because we want to honor and glorify Him.

lol, wow talk about off topic but I love these discussions.

I am working on my house so I will be off and on.

Neat! Christian is to be a follower of Christ. I am a follower of Christ. I am a Christian.

Edit - I have to add here that I have been Catholic all my life and never knew anything about good works until I came here. Are you sure that is a Catholic thing? Just curious again.
 
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KATHXOYMENOC

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Neat! Christian is to be a follower of Christ. I am a follower of Christ. I am a Christian.

Edit - I have to add here that I have been Catholic all my life and never knew anything about good works until I came here. Are you sure that is a Catholic thing? Just curious again.

CF's definition of a "Christian":

This site has the goal of facilitating ecumenical discussions between various Christian faiths as determined by adherence to the Nicene Creed and the Trinitarian nature of God. Those who do not adhere to the Creed are welcome as members and participants in discussions in much of this site, but are required to respect these beliefs, even if they do not share them.
 
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mont974x4

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Neat! Christian is to be a follower of Christ. I am a follower of Christ. I am a Christian.

Edit - I have to add here that I have been Catholic all my life and never knew anything about good works until I came here. Are you sure that is a Catholic thing? Just curious again.


How do we become Christians? Many believe it will be good works that save us or even baptism. No physical act we can do will save us, only faith in Him.
 
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threeinone

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CF's definition of a "Christian":

This site has the goal of facilitating ecumenical discussions between various Christian faiths as determined by adherence to the Nicene Creed and the Trinitarian nature of God. Those who do not adhere to the Creed are welcome as members and participants in discussions in much of this site, but are required to respect these beliefs, even if they do not share them.

Yes, I had forgotten those but they have always been a part of my life and beliefs the same as every Catholic. Glad you brought those up as they are an essential part of the answer to the question.:wave:
 
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threeinone

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How do we become Christians? Many believe it will be good works that save us or even baptism. No physical act we can do will save us, only faith in Him.

Jay

I think you might be quite surprised at the number of Catholics who do not follow the good works thing and at the number who are like me and never heard of good works until coming here. I think it is very sad that Catholics are all painted the same color and so-called Christians all with different beliefs are accepted as one. Customs and traditions are not what make a person Christian or not. Beliefs do not necessarily make a Christian or not. How a person lives out their faith is what makes them Christian or not. I wish I had not asked because I am not fully Catholic but I am fully Christian but not accepted as such because Catholic is some sort of disease that they all seem to have. But Christians are Christians no matter what. Enjoy:wave:

I am not offended but obviously do not belong in a Christian forum and I really do not want to belong to one of the diseased forums.

See what I mean about being Catholic. If I hadn't said, I'd still be accepted. I wonder how many Catholics are wondering around without their icon. There should be some warning to those non-Christian Catholics to keep them out of here.
 
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mont974x4

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Jay

I think you might be quite surprised at the number of Catholics who do not follow the good works thing and at the number who are like me and never heard of good works until coming here. I think it is very sad that Catholics are all painted the same color and so-called Christians all with different beliefs are accepted as one. Customs and traditions are not what make a person Christian or not. Beliefs do not necessarily make a Christian or not. How a person lives out their faith is what makes them Christian or not. I wish I had not asked because I am not fully Catholic but I am fully Christian but not accepted as such because Catholic is some sort of disease that they all seem to have. But Christians are Christians no matter what. Enjoy:wave:

I am not offended but obviously do not belong in a Christian forum and I really do not want to belong to one of the diseased forums.

See what I mean about being Catholic. If I hadn't said, I'd still be accepted. I wonder how many Catholics are wondering around without their icon. There should be some warning to those non-Christian Catholics to keep them out of here.


If you have Christ as your Lord and Savior then you certainly do belong on a Christian forum.

I have tried to be careful to specify between the teaching and traditions of the RCC and individuals. I am sorry if I failed. I do not believe in denominations but rather the Church being the body of Christ as a whole with smaller churches being local fellowships doing His work on earth.
 
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threeinone

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If you have Christ as your Lord and Savior then you certainly do belong on a Christian forum.

I have tried to be careful to specify between the teaching and traditions of the RCC and individuals. I am sorry if I failed. I do not believe in denominations but rather the Church being the body of Christ as a whole with smaller churches being local fellowships doing His work on earth.

You've been quite careful mont

I am just totally fed up with this ridiculous good works thing. Like are we supposed to do bad works. And what the heck are good works anyway. I know what good deeds are. Boy scouts do them, volunteers do them.....are they not Christian. Never mind me.....I never should have asked the question. I never knew until now that there is a difference between Catholic and Christian. Actually, I was told before, this if just confirmation.

Pfffffffffffffffffft I just need to go take a happy pill:D
 
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KATHXOYMENOC

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You've been quite careful mont

I am just totally fed up with this ridiculous good works thing. Like are we supposed to do bad works. And what the heck are good works anyway. I know what good deeds are. Boy scouts do them, volunteers do them.....are they not Christian. Never mind me.....I never should have asked the question. I never knew until now that there is a difference between Catholic and Christian. Actually, I was told before, this if just confirmation.

Pfffffffffffffffffft I just need to go take a happy pill:D

"Works?"
"Works?"
krebs3.gif

We don't need no stinkin' works!!






Or do we?

James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

INClogo.gif
 
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INRI2

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Certain among us can't answer that question without possibly breaking the rules.
Ask yourself if they believe the true biblical gospel or not or if what
they proclaim is the other gospel the Bible warns us about. I'll say this.
I think there are probably individual Catholics who are truly Christian, but it's in spite of the religion they belong to, imho. Their way of salvation isn't the same as I see taught in Scripture.

You have to remember that all protestant denominations either split directly from the Catholic faith or split from a denomination that split from the Catholic Church, therefore all protestant denominations have their origins directly or indirectly from the Catholic Church therefore protestantism can not possibly be the correct faith, since Christ gave us a Church 1500 years prior to protestantism and promised

"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

So if the faith is preserved from the outset by Christ nothing can corrupt it...EVEN CORRUPT POPES

INRI2, what constitutes a saint? How are we saved? How do we repent?

A Saint is a Christian
We are saved by the sacrafice of Jesus Christ
We repent with our whole hearts and turn away from sin and towards the Gospel

"This has eveyrthing to do with faith and nothing to do with works."

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, And continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,"
but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way,
faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say,
"You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and
I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man,
do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor
Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made
complete by what he did
. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says,


"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called
God's friend. 24 you see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

"the idea of needing a pope and priests to confess to"

After he said this, he showed them his hands and side.
The apostles were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said,
"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven;
if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


"praying to Mary and the "saints"

Actually its Intercession

"He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Mk 9:4 - Jesus converses with Elijah and moses
Rev 6:9-11 Martyres under heavenly alter want earthly vidication
Lk 16:19-30 Departed rich man INTERCEEDS for his brothers.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

Tob 12:12 An Angel presents Tobit & sarahs prayer to God.

"infant baptism"

Jn 3:5, Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven.

1 Cor 15:21-22 - In adam all die, In Christ all made alive

Mk 10:14 - Let little Children come unto me, the Kingdom belongs to such as these.

Lk 18:25 - People were bringing even infants to him...

Col 2:11-12 - Baptism has replaced Circumsicisim
(Circumsicisim done on eight day after birth)

In 252 AD the council of cathercondemed the opinion that infants must wait until the eighth
day to be baptized as was the case with circumcision - St Cyprian of catherage, letter 64.

Mt 8:5 - servent healed because of centurians faith.

mt 15:21 - daughter healed because of cannanite womans faith.

St Hippolytus - (c 215AD) BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN; and if they can speak let them do so.
Otherwise let their parents or other reletives speak for them _ "the apostolic tradition"

"the process of determining sainthood"

No scriptual passages spring to mind, not to my knowledge at least.

I will look into it, perhaps others should do the same.

"treating writings and decisions of the church as being equal to Scripture"

1 Cor 11:2 - Hold fast to traditions I hand on to you.
2 Thess 2:15 - Hold fast to traditions, weather oral or by letter.
2 Thess 3:6 - SHUN those acting not according to tradition.
Jn 21:25 - Not everything Jesus said is recorded in scripture.
Acts 20:35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in the Gospels
2 Tim 1:13 follow my sound words, guard the truth.
2 Tim 2:2 What you heard entrust to faithful men.
Rom 10:17 - faith comes from what is heard.
Mt 23: 2-3 Chair of moses, observe whatever they tell you.

St Athanasius (360 Ad) "let us note that the very Tradition, teaching and faith of The Catholic Church from the begining, which the lord gave, was preached by the apostles and was preserved by the fathers. On this was the church founded. AND IF
ANYONE DEPARTS FROM THIS, HE NEITHER IS, NOR ANY LONGER OUGHT TO BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN.

FUNDEMENTAL DOCTRINES 1 PREFACE 2 - (C 230AD)
"The teaching of the church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the church even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as truth which is in no way at variance with ecclisiastical and apostolic tradition.
 
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K

KATHXOYMENOC

Guest
You have to remember that all protestant denominations either split directly from the Catholic faith or split from a denomination that split from the Catholic Church, therefore all protestant denominations have their origins directly or indirectly from the Catholic Church therefore protestantism can not possibly be the correct faith, since Christ gave us a Church 1500 years prior to protestantism and promised

"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

Since you bring this up ... do not many say that the "Roman" Catholic Church itself split directly from the formerly one, holy, catholic and apostolic church conciliarly overseen by what were then five patriarchates :liturgy: :priest: - and the gates of hell have still not prevailed over the patriarchates that remained in communion with each other as the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church ... from which Rome split away?

So, who was the first to split: Luther and Calvin ... or Rome?

Was the Protestant Reformation a case of "Like father, like son"?

Just askin' :confused:
 
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mont974x4

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You have to remember that all protestant denominations either split directly from the Catholic faith or split from a denomination that split from the Catholic Church, therefore all protestant denominations have their origins directly or indirectly from the Catholic Church therefore protestantism can not possibly be the correct faith, since Christ gave us a Church 1500 years prior to protestantism and promised

"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

So if the faith is preserved from the outset by Christ nothing can corrupt it...EVEN CORRUPT POPES



A Saint is a Christian
We are saved by the sacrafice of Jesus Christ
We repent with our whole hearts and turn away from sin and towards the Gospel



Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, And continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,"
but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way,
faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say,
"You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and
I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man,
do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor
Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made
complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says,


"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called
God's friend. 24 you see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.



After he said this, he showed them his hands and side.
The apostles were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said,
"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven;
if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."



Actually its Intercession

"He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Mk 9:4 - Jesus converses with Elijah and moses
Rev 6:9-11 Martyres under heavenly alter want earthly vidication
Lk 16:19-30 Departed rich man INTERCEEDS for his brothers.

I'm sorry but I believe you misunderstand these references.

We can and should pray for people but Christ is the only one who makes intercession on our behalf before God.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

Tob 12:12 An Angel presents Tobit & sarahs prayer to God.

What book is this? It isn;t in my Bible.



Jn 3:5, Mk 16:16 - baptism required for entering heaven.

1 Cor 15:21-22 - In adam all die, In Christ all made alive

Mk 10:14 - Let little Children come unto me, the Kingdom belongs to such as these.

Lk 18:25 - People were bringing even infants to him...

Col 2:11-12 - Baptism has replaced Circumsicisim
(Circumsicisim done on eight day after birth)

It is our personal faith not the faith of others on our behalf. An infant can not make that choice for themself and we can not make that for them. I believe God's grace and mercy saves those that die to young to make that decision.

In 252 AD the council of cathercondemed the opinion that infants must wait until the eighth
day to be baptized as was the case with circumcision - St Cyprian of catherage, letter 64.



Mt 8:5 - servent healed because of centurians faith.

mt 15:21 - daughter healed because of cannanite womans faith.

St Hippolytus - (c 215AD) BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN; and if they can speak let them do so.
Otherwise let their parents or other reletives speak for them _ "the apostolic tradition"



No scriptual passages spring to mind, not to my knowledge at least.

I will look into it, perhaps others should do the same.

We that are His children, as you already said, are called saints...we need no man or man made process to determine sainthood when God already calls us saints.



1 Cor 11:2 - Hold fast to traditions I hand on to you.
2 Thess 2:15 - Hold fast to traditions, weather oral or by letter.
2 Thess 3:6 - SHUN those acting not according to tradition.
Jn 21:25 - Not everything Jesus said is recorded in scripture.
Acts 20:35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in the Gospels
2 Tim 1:13 follow my sound words, guard the truth.
2 Tim 2:2 What you heard entrust to faithful men.
Rom 10:17 - faith comes from what is heard.
Mt 23: 2-3 Chair of moses, observe whatever they tell you.

All traditions and teachings are in the Bible, nothing more is needed. We are warned to not add to or take away from the Bible.

St Athanasius (360 Ad) "let us note that the very Tradition, teaching and faith of The Catholic Church from the begining, which the lord gave, was preached by the apostles and was preserved by the fathers. On this was the church founded. AND IF
ANYONE DEPARTS FROM THIS, HE NEITHER IS, NOR ANY LONGER OUGHT TO BE CALLED A CHRISTIAN.

FUNDEMENTAL DOCTRINES 1 PREFACE 2 - (C 230AD)
"The teaching of the church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the church even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as truth which is in no way at variance with ecclisiastical and apostolic tradition.


If it isn't in the Bible it does not have the authority of the Bible.
 
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Lynn73

Jesus' lamb
Sep 15, 2003
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Just totally interested in your post. Very curious.....just curious. Why would you think that Catholics are not Christian? I am not looking for an argument. I have been Catholic all my life and never for a moment did I think I was not Christian. I, as well as all Catholics I know of, believe in Jesus as our Savior, believe in God, for the most part live good Christian lives and for the most part are like all other Christians. What is not Christian? As I say, I am just curious since I haven't been going to church anyway so you can't offend me.:scratch:

Edit - I just remembered that my faith icon is not Catholic either. The reason being, as others have also said, that I found that when I displayed my Catholic icon, I was treated in a different manner that I didn't like and by all definitions in the rules, I am Christian so I displayed the Christian icon and was immediately treated as an equal. It is not to be dishonest or hiding.

I'll pm you and do my best to explain my position, ok?
 
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