• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Intelligent Design isn’t intelligent

Status
Not open for further replies.

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟37,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Barbarian observes:
No, your alteration of God's word does that. Nowhere does it animals "reproduce after their own kind." You just inserted that to make His word acceptable to you. You have to accept that the Bible says what it means and it means what it says, instead of trying to change it.

(cites plants with fruit)

No animals reproducing according to kind? No new plants according to their kinds? That's what I told you. You wanted to add that, and so you did. But it's your word, not God's

Its God's word. The word Bible isn't found anywhere in the Bible either. But I am sure holding a Bible. I pointed out the clear teaching and understanding of the text. An understanding that has existed among the Jewish people since the Spirit first inspired Moses to write it. Are you accusing God of being a terrible orator? Someone who can't even convey a simple thought to His chosen people. I would also point out that no matter what you still also have to wrestle with the fact that plants can't evolve according to scripture and that birds and mammals existed at the same time that dinosaurs were created. So even if for the sake of argument I let your odd interpretation slide, the logical conclusion still fails miserably.
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟37,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Special creation doesn't explain anything though. You're just treating as a default (e.g. the null hypothesis). The problem is it is *not* the null hypothesis.

No I am merely saying the Bible describes special creation and the observable science actually collaborates with it. That's what you are not grasping here. We are in a discussion as to rather or not biblical special creation occurred. Not just a general discussion about how life might have come into existence. There are billions of possibilities. It may have always existed. (Ruled out by the calculations of Albert Einstein in his TOGR, and the 1929 observations of Edwin Hubble.) It could have been from ET. (But ruled out when we start considering where ET would have come from.) It could have sprang from nothing. (Ruled out when we realize nothing comes from nothing and if ever there were nothing there would still be nothing.) Countless ways it could have came into existence. The Bible tells us one way. It says that a Supreme infinite and intelligent being created the universe and life. So then to rule out this possibility it requires evidence that life formed in a way that conflicts with the Bible. It's not the "null" hypothesis but rather the hypothesis we are examining for validity. So far I have observed nothing that conflicts with the hypothesis and many things that collaborate with it.

The other problem is that it's an unbounded explanation; in order words, it explains anything and everything. Consequently, there is no way to test any ideas based on special creation. You see this obvious issue given the sheer number of different (and conflicting) creationist beliefs in existence.

I'm sorry but no. It explains some very detailed things in a very detailed way. So to "test" it we can actually use a four step test that I call the "SHIP" test. The very first part is a Scientific evaluation of the Biblical text, the second part is a Historical evaluation of the Biblical text, third would be an Inconsistency evaluation of the text, and fourth would be a Prophetic evaluation. You see if the Bible, or any other religious document, were truly inspired by an all powerful all knowing God then it would agree with known science, history, be inconsistency free, and one hundred percent prophetically accurate. For example if we apply this test to the Muslim Koran we find a passage that tells us Alexander the Great found that the sun sets every night in a muddy spring (failing science). Another passage in the Koran describes the pharaoh of Egypt threatening to have Moses crucified. Something that we know from a historical perspective could not have happened because crucifixion was a form of execution that would not be invented for another seven centuries after the time of Moses. (failing history) The Koran also tells us that Allah created the heavens and earth in six days. But just a few passages over He did it in eight days. A clear and irreconcilable inconsistency. (failing inconsistency) Since the Koran never makes a single prophetic statement it only rates a zero in that category. However after studying the Bible for decades I have yet to find a single place where it conflicts with any of the SHIP test. In many ways it surpasses it. The most significant in my opinion is its prophecy.



This is post-hoc fallacy. And you're ignoring the fact that most of the universe is not hospitable to life. Life that doesn't exist can't argue about its non-existence.

Have you ever had a fish aquarium? Was it placed on a table or possibly built into the wall. Can you imagine two fish arguing over rather their home was naturally formed or intelligently designed? One of the fish could make your exact same claim. But it falls apart by just the fact that even a few obvious design elements can be seen in the makeup of the aquarium. It doesn't matter if the table and floor and ceiling and walls in the room are "inhospitable" or not. What matters is seeing how the water is perfectly filtered and circulated and charged with oxygen. The depth and amount of water are perfect, the steady food supply and lighting, the temperature, location of the tank etc... are all fine tuned. From the beginning of the tank, the fish keeper's invisible nature is clearly seen being observed by the tanks make up, so that all the fish are without excuse. (Rom. 1:20)
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Its God's word.

To which you've added your own ideas. No where in the Bible does it say animals reproduce according to their kind.

The word Bible isn't found anywhere in the Bible either. But I am sure holding a Bible.

I don't think that "it's not in the Bible, so it must be true" is very good reasoning.

I pointed out the clear teaching and understanding of the text.

You asserted your revision of the text.

An understanding that has existed among the Jewish people since the Spirit first inspired Moses to write it.

Show me that the Jewish people also added that to scripture.

Are you accusing God of being a terrible orator? Someone who can't even convey a simple thought to His chosen people.

Occam's razor would suggest that it's your revision that's wrong, not God.

I would also point out that no matter what you still also have to wrestle with the fact that plants can't evolve according to scripture

It doesn't say that they can't. After all, plants evolve by producing seed with genes that are slightly different than their parents. And we directly observe this happening.

and that birds and mammals existed at the same time that dinosaurs were created.

It doesn't say that, either. It's another of your additions to scripture to make it more acceptable to you.
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟37,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I guess you are ignoring me like a coward these days, but the issue here is - why do you expect such a thing?

WHY a "finely graduated chain of fossils"? WHAT IS a "finely graduated chain of fossils"?

A finely graduated chain would be an observable slow gradual change in each link from one major form to another. An entire chain but not one requiring every single generation. Just not containing large leaps such as a fish with only fins suddenly having functional legs or a dinosaur with no sail on its back to one with a huge sail. I would prefer the images of the each link be presented for comparison to the previous one and the next one. This type of chain is the only thing that will prove common descent over common creator since both theories expect similarity.

This is exactly why I have questioned your knowledge of genetics and development in the past, because expecting to find such a thing indicates 1. your ignorance of fossilization, finding fossils, etc. 2. the relationship between genes and development

Look I shouldn't have to be a rocket scientist in order for someone to demonstrate that rockets work. I don't have to be an aeronautics engineer in order to be shown that plane travel is safe. I shouldn't have to have a PhD in genetics or paleontology in order to see evolution happened.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The very first part is a Scientific evaluation of the Biblical text, the second part is a Historical evaluation of the Biblical text, third would be an Inconsistency evaluation of the text, and fourth would be a Prophetic evaluation.

It would seem that the fourth would be, in your case, a "tendentious need for a specific outcome."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
A finely graduated chain would be an observable slow gradual change in each link from one major form to another.

Your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise gave you a list of such chains. I showed you a long list of fossils with gradual changes between reptiles and mammals. No point in denying the fact.

An entire chain but not one requiring every single generation. Just not containing large leaps such as a fish with only fins suddenly having functional legs or a dinosaur with no sail on its back to one with a huge sail.

Not one of the finely graduated chains Dr. Wise and I showed you are like that. Why pretend otherwise?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I shouldn't have to have a PhD in genetics or paleontology in order to see evolution happened.

No one does. Evolution is a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Population geneticists document this regularly. It's just a fact.

I think you're confusing evolution with consequences of evolution like speciation. As you learned, the major creationist organizations now admit the fact of speciation; some go so far as to admit the evolution of new genera and families. They just claim "it's not real evolution."
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟37,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It would seem that the fourth would be, in your case, a "tendentious need for a specific outcome."

588 BC Ezekiel predicts the following against Tyre:
1. King Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the main land city.
2. The debris of the city would be thrown into the sea.
3. The city would be scrapped clean like a bare rock.
4. Then many nations would come against the people of Tyre.
5. And that the city would never be rebuilt.
6. Fishermen would use the barren place to spread their nets to dry.​

History records that 3 years later Nebuchadnezzar and his army did lay siege to the city of Tyre. However at the end of the siege the king found the city to be deserted. All of its inhabitants had fled by boat to an island a half mile off the coast and fortified a city there. The main city was destroyed by the king just as Ezekiel had predicted. 240 years later Alexander the Great began his quest calling upon each of the Phoenician cities he came to, to surrender to him or be destroyed. Most of the cities in the area surrendered however Tyre refused. Thus they were promptly put under siege again. Alexander had his army scrape all the remaining debris from old Tyre and used it to construct a half mile causeway out to the island. Between that and his fleet of ships drafted from "many nations" who had surrendered to him, Alexander was able to crash the walls and over run the city of Tyre. Eight thousand were immediately struck dead by the sword and another 30,000 were sold into slavery. The rest of the city was completely destroyed never to be rebuilt. One secular historian (Philip Myer) even made an interesting observation about the ancient site of the city. He said now it is nothing but a flat baron rock where fisherman often spread their nets.

That's pretty specific. The odds of Ezekiel making such a prediction and getting everything right are 75 million to one.

But lets not stop there. He also predicted the destruction of Sidon. These predictions were fulfilled in 351 BC when the king of Persia laid siege to Sidon and over 40,000 people there committed suicide rather than suffer at the hands of the king.

The prophets Hosea and Micah both prophesied the destruction of Samaria in 282 BC. They said it would fall violently and be left as a heap in the field. They said that all of its stones would be pulled down into the valley leveling it to its foundations and vineyards planted in its place. These prophecies were fulfilled in 120 BC by John Hircanus.

The prophet Isaiah in 700 BC predicted that Jerusalem and its temple would be rebuilt by a king named Cyrus. Funny thing is, at the time, Jerusalem and its temple were all intact with no enemies. However in 586 BC Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by king Nebuchadnezzar. The people of Israel were taken into slavery by the Babylonians, until 539 BC when the Persians rose up and conquered Babylon. The king freed the slaves and gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. What was that kings name? "Cyrus."

The Biblical prophets foretold the destruction of Gaza which was fulfilled over 400 years later. There are hundreds of prophecies like these found throughout the text of the Bible which were all fulfilled.

Jesus Himself made predictions which can easily be shown to have came to pass. For example in His day there were four ancient cities of Tiberias, Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, that all set in various locations around the sea of Galilee. Jesus spoke against all of the cities with the exception of Tiberias. Interestingly when the Romans destroyed Israel in 70AD they destroyed all but one of these four cities. That city still stands to this day. Which one is it? "Tiberias."

The old Testament prophets foretold the coming of a Holy One of God who would redeem mankind. He would be the Messiah or Christ in Greek. In Genesis 3 we read the very first prediction. God said from the seed of the woman a man would come who would crush the head of the serpent but bruise His heal in the process. For starters we know that women do not have "seeds." So God was going to do something very unusual to bring this Holy One into the world. The crushing of the head represents a death blow. A finality to the sin the serpent of old had instigated. The bruising represents an injury that would not be permanent. Hmm... wonder what Holy One came into the world and destroyed the works of the devil with one wounding blow but did not stay injured?

There are more than 333 predictions throughout the old testament which predicted the manner in which He would come. For example the prophets predicted this Holy One would be born in the town of Bethlehem. (specific) As a sign He would be born of a virgin Mother. (specific) He would begin His ministry on the shores of Galilee. (specific) The prophet Zechariah even gave the very specific prophecy that He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver. The Psalms said His hands would be pierced through. Isaiah said He would be treated like a common criminal as we saw when they hung Him on a cross between two common thieves. He predicted that His executioners would gamble for His cloths as He died. The prophets said His body would be laid in a rich man's tomb, just as the gospels record happened. But my favorite prophecy is found in Psalms 16:10. It says the Holy One would not stay in the grave long enough to see corruption. It was literally a prediction of the resurrection. His wounds were only temporary.

This is why I love to point out to people, who claim that Christianity is really a newer religion, that it is actually the first one. If the very first man and woman (Adam and Eve) were looking for a Holy One or Messiah to come, and the Greek word for Messiah is Christ, then Adam and Eve were the first people looking for Christ to come.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
588 BC Ezekiel predicts
That's pretty specific. The odds of Ezekiel making such a prediction and getting everything right are 75 million to one.

Since 94.6 of all internet numbers are just made up, let's see your calculations for that. (prediction: ain't gonna happen)
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟37,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Since 94.6 of all internet numbers are just made up, let's see your calculations for that. (prediction: ain't gonna happen)

Obviously that very small part of it I picked up from someone else and was not "my calculation."

Now that we've strained at that nat what did you think of the camel that you swallowed?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Obviously that very small part of it I picked up from someone else and was not "my calculation."

Why not go to his site and show me his calculations? Or if he just tossed the number out, what makes you think it's got any connection with reality?

Now that we've strained at that nat

If you're making a claim, backing it up is the key to making it believable. Can you see, now that the truth is out, why people are now less likely to believe you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,854,942
52,386
Guam
✟5,081,314.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Since 94.6 of all internet numbers are just made up, let's see your calculations for that. (prediction: ain't gonna happen)
QV please:

Others who disagree with specific claims made by Stoner include fellow Christians and secular historians: for instance, while Stoner says of Ezekiel's prophecy of the permanent destruction of Tyre "If Ezekiel had looked at Tyre in his day and had made these seven predictions in human wisdom, these estimates mean that there would have been only one chance in 75,000,000 of their all coming true. They all came true in the minutest detail", others claim that "the problem is that very little of this actually came to pass! In fact, it badly missed how history actually unfolded" and "The location of the city of Tyre is not in doubt, for it exists to this day on the same spot and is known as Sur."
However, it could still be argued that the boundaries of the ancient mainland city may have fallen within areas of the modern city not rebuilt in the present day.

SOURCE
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
The problem with the Tyre prophecy is that it did not even come close to coming true. So the odds only confirm what we already knew. It is a failed prophecy. People have to do all sorts of unjustified distortions of both the Bible and of history to support that claim. If one reads the passage without gymnastics it is clear that the prophecy claimed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat the King of Tyre and destroy the island. That did not happen. In fact Ezekiel admits it later on and makes another failed prophecy, that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Egypt. He never did so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,552
12,700
77
✟415,573.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Barbarian suggests:
Since 94.6 of all internet numbers are just made up, let's see your calculations for that. (prediction: ain't gonna happen)

QV please:

Oh, darn. Forgot my Warning For The Humor-Impaired. My bad.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,854,942
52,386
Guam
✟5,081,314.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The problem with the Tyre prophecy is that it did not even come close to coming true. So the odds only confirm what we already knew. It is a failed prophecy. People have to do all sorts of unjustified distortions of both the Bible and of history to support that claim. If one reads the passage without gymnastics it is clear that the prophecy claimed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat the King of Tyre and destroy the island. That did not happen. In fact Ezekiel admits it later on and makes another failed prophecy, that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Egypt. He never did so.
QV please:

 
  • Winner
Reactions: St. Helens
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,854,942
52,386
Guam
✟5,081,314.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There was no "mainland Tyre".
What's this then?

According to Herodotus, Tyre was founded around 2750 BC and originally built as a walled city upon the mainland.

SOURCE
Herodotus (c. 484 BC – c. 425 BC) was an ancient Greek historian who was born in Halicarnassus in the Persian Empire (modern-day Bodrum, Turkey). He is known for having written the book The Histories, a detailed record of his "inquiry" (ἱστορία historía) on the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars. He is widely considered to have been the first writer to have treated historical subjects using a method of systematic investigation—specifically, by collecting his materials and then critically arranging them into an historiographic narrative. On account of this, he is often referred to as "The Father of History", a title first conferred on him by the first-century BC Roman orator Cicero.
SOURCE
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,854,942
52,386
Guam
✟5,081,314.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There was a city on the mainland, called Ushu. But Tyre was always offshore.
QV please:

Tyre is an ancient Phoenician port city which, in myth, is known as the birthplace of Europa (who gave Europe its name) and Dido of Carthage (who gave aid to, and fell in love with, Aeneas of Troy). The name means 'rock' and the city consisted of two parts, the main trade centre on an island, and 'old Tyre', about a half mile opposite on the mainland. The old city, known as Ushu, was founded c. 2750 BCE and the trade centre grew up shortly after.

SOURCE
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.