Intelligent Design/Fine Tuning Question

[Question.Everything]

No, not scientific laws...laws of logic. For example, the law of non-contradiction. The $100 bill in my wallet is either in my wallet or not in my wallet. It cannot be both at the same time. Would you agree with that?

With the $100 bill? Sure I believe it.

 

[Hestha]

Hey, Question.Everything,

If you have read the rudely named article, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview - Answers in Genesis, you may find that this article discusses the issue of "laws of logic" and "the existence of God". The article relies on the assumption that the laws of logic and the existence of God are related, because they share similar characteristics. I don't know about you, but I think that's a logical fallacy right there. Just because two things are related doesn't mean they come from the same source. For example, bird wings and bat wings may be both used for flying, but that does not mean they are evolved from the same source. It's called convergent evolution.

 

[golgotha61]

Hey, Question.Everything,

If you have read the rudely named article, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview - Answers in Genesis, you may find that this article discusses the issue of "laws of logic" and "the existence of God". The article relies on the assumption that the laws of logic and the existence of God are related, because they share similar characteristics. I don't know about you, but I think that's a logical fallacy right there. Just because two things are related doesn't mean they come from the same source. For example, bird wings and bat wings may be both used for flying, but that does not mean they are evolved from the same source. It's called convergent evolution.

I think you have misunderstood the thesis in the "Irrational Worldview" article. The point is that the atheist believes that only the material exists while logic and its laws govern all that does exist and logic is non-material as well as originates from God. God uses logic to hold the universe together. Logic is universal, does not change, and when we use logic, we are using what God has created. So to deny God exists and employ logic that He has created is illogical.

 

[Hestha]

originates from God.

I think this part is the core of the article. The reader must believe that logic originate from God, but why? Why can't logic originate from anywhere else? Because God has created everything, and nothing is created without God. The bold claim is questionable.

 

[Question.Everything]

I think you have misunderstood the thesis in the "Irrational Worldview" article. The point is that the atheist believes that only the material exists while logic and its laws govern all that does exist and logic is non-material as well as originates from God. God uses logic to hold the universe together. Logic is universal, does not change, and when we use logic, we are using what God has created. So to deny God and use logic that He has created is illogical.

How can you prove God created logic, and that logic itself is not self-evident?

 

[golgotha61]

I think this part is the core of the article. The reader must believe that logic originate from God, but why? Why can't logic originate from anywhere else? Because God has created everything, and nothing is created without God. The bold claim is questionable.

Where does logic originate?

 

[Hestha]

How can you prove God created logic, and that logic itself is not self-evident?

I do not think you are supposed to "prove" it. For example, how do you "prove" that love and other metaphysical topics exist?

 

[Hestha]

Where does logic originate?

I do not know how to answer this philosophical question. So, I'll just say that the origin of logic is a big question mark. Maybe it's God. Maybe it's not God.

 

[golgotha61]

How can you prove God created logic, and that logic itself is not self-evident?

First, I cannot prove God created logic. It is the premiss in the original thesis. As a believer, I attribute the existence and origin of logic to God because God is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13). Although I cannot prove God is the origin of logic, the fact that there is something non-material that exists and exists as a governor over the natural world should make the atheist reconsider his natural world view.

For the second question: the recognition of the existence of logic is not the issue. The issue is because it exists it must originate from somewhere. Logic an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does it originate?

 

[golgotha61]

I do not know how to answer this philosophical question. So, I'll just say that the origin of logic is a big question mark. Maybe it's God. Maybe it's not God.

This is a good start and a wise position.

 

[ALoveDivine]

If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

Something has to be eternal and causeless, otherwise you end up with an infinite regress, which is a severe logical problem. It seems you yourself recognize this. So, either God (an eternal causeless mind) or the universe (an intricate and complex array of matter and energy) is eternal. We can go to science to see which is more likely.

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

Because the universe (matter, energy, space, and time) had an absolute beginning about 13.7 billion years ago in the big bang. This is the overwhelming consensus of modern cosmology. Given that science is the epistemological foundation of naturalism, to reject this consensus is a violation of your own epistemology. So, the universe is not eternal.

On top of all this, the universe is intricately finely tuned to allow the evolution of intelligent life. If any of the fundamental physical constants of the cosmos were off by even a tiny fraction of a percentile, life and even stars could not exist. These physical constants are not physically necessary as a result of physical laws, they just happen to be programmed into the universe at the moment of the big bang. This is indicative of purposeful design.

The question then becomes this; which is more likely to be the causeless cause responsible for this finely tuned universe, an eternal mind (God) or an infinite set of unfathomably complex universes with random designs somehow interacting with each other and existing for no apparent reason, by chance producing a universe like ours in an infinite cosmic dice game? (multiverse hypothesis)

Following Okhams Razor, God is the simplest explanation to explain the observable fact that we inhabit a finite and finely tuned universe

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

I think it is in many ways, but not entirely. Actually, the very fact that we can learn real truths about this universe is itself indicative of God. Under a naturalistic frame-work, where both ourselves and the universe exist without reason or purpose, it seems incredibly unlikely that a species like us would evolve and actually be able to learn about the laws of the cosmos at all. Yet we do really know things about the universe, because we use this knowledge for practical applications that work.

Further, where does our sense of natural beauty come from? Why is nature beautiful, in a naturalistic frame work? I can see no evolutionary benefit to perception of beauty in nature.

However, if God does exist and wanted to reveal some things to us about himself by means of his created order, then it makes sense that he'd equip us with the ability to learn real truths about the universe and to perceive it as beautiful.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
- Romans 1:20

 

[Question.Everything]

First, I cannot prove God created logic. It is the premiss in the original thesis. As a believer, I attribute the existence and origin of logic to God because God is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13). Although I cannot prove God is the origin of logic, the fact that there is something non-material that exists and exists as a governor over the natural world should make the atheist reconsider his natural world view.

God is an unnecessary step in your logic. Logic is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny itself either. It does not require a creator.

For the second question: the recognition of the existence of logic is not the issue. The issue is because it exists it must originate from somewhere. Logic an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does it originate?

[God] is an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does God originate? The question defeats itself.

 

[Hestha]

[God] is an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does God originate? The question defeats itself.

Where do you think space originate?

Where do you think time originate?

Where do you think matter originate?

Where do you think energy originate?

What is 'material'? What is it made of? Is it matter, energy or something else?

 

[bling]

It has not been shown how something can come from nothing unless you redefine nothing as being something.

So that leaves us with something always existing. The question is: “Is this something that always existed intelligent and powerful or is it random unintelligent matter/energy?”

There is the appearance of intelligent design everywhere we look, so how would random unintelligent energy and matter produce the appearance of intelligence and actual intelligence (as found in humans for instance)?

What we do know is: “the more we know the more we realize we do not know”, suggesting an extremely complex universe. As the realization of the complexity of the universe increases the likelihood of random conditions resulting in such a universe become less likely.

Since something has to exist forever, which takes more “faith” to believe in: an eternal intelligent powerful creator of the universe or random energy/matter producing a very complex universe?

 

[Hestha]

It has not been shown how something can come from nothing unless you redefine nothing as being something.

So that leaves us with something always existing. The question is: “Is this something that always existed intelligent and powerful or is it random unintelligent matter/energy?”

There is the appearance of intelligent design everywhere we look, so how would random unintelligent energy and matter produce the appearance of intelligence and actual intelligence (as found in humans for instance)?

What we do know is: “the more we know the more we realize we do not know”, suggesting an extremely complex universe. As the realization of the complexity of the universe increases the likelihood of random conditions resulting in such a universe become less likely.

Since something has to exist forever, which takes more “faith” to believe in: an eternal intelligent powerful creator of the universe or random energy/matter producing a very complex universe?

What do you mean by "intelligence", and why do you call "matter" and "energy" unintelligent? How do you measure intelligence?

I am not sure which one takes more 'faith' to believe in, because first of all, how exactly do you quantify 'faith'? All knowledge requires some sort of faith. It's called epistemology.

 

[Nails74]

No, not scientific laws...laws of logic. For example, the law of non-contradiction. The $100 bill in my wallet is either in my wallet or not in my wallet. It cannot be both at the same time. Would you agree with that?

With the $100 bill? Sure I believe it.

And are these universal laws? Do they apply everywhere or just where you are. Are they true for everyone or just for you?

 

[bling]

What do you mean by "intelligence", and why do you call "matter" and "energy" unintelligent? How do you measure intelligence?

Intelligent= organized by design and is not random (random = not intelligently organized). The better the organization the greater the apparent intelligence.
Energy and matter in our universe is organized and is not random, but what reason would energy and matter appear to be organized by rules; if it was not designed that way?

I am not sure which one takes more 'faith' to believe in, because first of all, how exactly do you quantify 'faith'? All knowledge requires some sort of faith. It's called epistemology.

It is for each person to deside.

 

[Hestha]

Intelligent= organized by design and is not random (random = not intelligently organized). The better the organization the greater the apparent intelligence.
Energy and matter in our universe is organized and is not random, but what reason would energy and matter appear to be organized by rules; if it was not designed that way?

Ah, thanks for clarifying the terms!

To answer your question, I think mass and gravity would play a role in organization. Because they are organizing energy and matter in space, that would be considered intelligence, right?

 

[elopez]

Why must the universe be caused?

It began to exist.

 

[golgotha61]

God is an unnecessary step in your logic. Logic is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny itself either. It does not require a creator.

[FONT=&quot]Where does it originate is the question? Even if I accept your thesis, and I don’t, logic is still an entity that governs the natural laws and presents a non-material entity that at the very least opens the possibilities for God. [/FONT]Its existence demonstrates that the natural world view is irrational.

[God] is an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity , so where does God originate? The question defeats itself.

[FONT=&quot]God is a living being with with all the characteristics of a being and not just an entity and He is not abstract. God is eternal and self existent as defined by scripture which is the only authoritative revealer of God. Since logic is a non living entity and not a being, it was created. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But this all is outside the purpose of the thesis. The question is: where does logic originate? I maintain, it originates with God.[/FONT]