Intelligences

[BarryK]

Since Adam and Eve were innocent and did not have knowledge of Good and evil. They also did not have any desire to multiply or have knowedge to do so. If they disobeyed Gods law, they would have transgressed the law. They did not have knowledge or comprehend the law with enough knowledge to be considered a sin. But you are correct that had they not multiplied, they would have been in disobedience and been guilty of transgressing the law. They would have then been cast out of the Garden. This was why Satan thought he had destroyed God's plan. The whole key is Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of knowledge of Good and evil through transgression in order to bring mortality into the world. Adam and Eve were created by God and had perfect bodies. They did not need food or drink, but could eat and drink if they desired.

did these "perfect Bodies" include a digestive tract?, Did they have the systems in place to metabolize various nutirants?

 

[BarryK]

Since Adam and Eve were innocent and did not have knowledge of Good and evil. They also did not have any desire to multiply or have knowedge to do so. If they disobeyed Gods law, they would have transgressed the law. They did not have knowledge or comprehend the law with enough knowledge to be considered a sin. But you are correct that had they not multiplied, they would have been in disobedience and been guilty of transgressing the law. They would have then been cast out of the Garden. This was why Satan thought he had destroyed God's plan. The whole key is Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of knowledge of Good and evil through transgression in order to bring mortality into the world. Adam and Eve were created by God and had perfect bodies. They did not need food or drink, but could eat and drink if they desired.

They were not evicted from the Garden untill The Man ate the fruit. If they had disobeyed earlier, they would have been evicted then.

Why do you think that they did not procreate before Cain and Able were born?
What makes you think that Cain and Able were the first, and second born of The Man and the Woman?
After the one slew the other, we read this:


Genesis 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


Take the time to read you Bible, and you would have seen this allready!!!


It is clearly evident that even though we have no detailed record of other people being around, they are still there none the less.
Just because the other possible members of The First Family are not specificly mentioned is not evidence that the first two sons specificly mentiond were the firstborn children

 

[fatboys]

They were not evicted from the Garden untill The Man ate the fruit. If they had disobeyed earlier, they would have been evicted then.

Not sure what your point is. Either way they would have been evicted from the Garden.

Why do you think that they did not procreate before Cain and Able were born?

I didn't say they did not have children before Cain and Able. I believe they did have many children after the fall and before Cain and Able.

What makes you think that Cain and Able were the first, and second born of The Man and the Woman?
After the one slew the other, we read this:


Genesis 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

That is nice.

It is clearly evident that even though we have no detailed record of other people being around, they are still there none the less.
Just because the other possible members of The First Family are not specificly mentioned is not evidence that the first two sons specificly mentiond were the firstborn children

I agree

 

[BarryK]

Not sure what your point is. Either way they would have been evicted from the Garden.

take another look at post #33

I didn't say they did not have children before Cain and Able. I believe they did have many children after the fall and before Cain and Able.

again, you are making death a pre-requisite for life. why is that?

 

[BarryK]

Originally Posted by fatboys

Not sure what your point is. Either way they would have been evicted from the Garden.
​

take another look at post #33





Originally Posted by fatboys

I didn't say they did not have children before Cain and Able. I believe they did have many children after the fall and before Cain and Able.
​

again, you are making death a pre-requisite for life. why is that?

Bump for Fatboys

 

[fatboys]

Bump for Fatboys

Again Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This does not make it a sin. The disobedience resulted in the same punishment as if they did sin. They did not have enough knowledge to have committed sin. So if they had not partaken of the fruit, they would have been kicked out of the Garden anyway which they would not have been a sin either.

 

[Rescued One]

Again Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This does not make it a sin. The disobedience resulted in the same punishment as if they did sin. They did not have enough knowledge to have committed sin. So if they had not partaken of the fruit, they would have been kicked out of the Garden anyway which they would not have been a sin either.

Why would they be "kicked out" of the Garden?

Adam was transgressing a lower commandment to keep the higher law. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not, as the Bible states in 1 Tim. 2:14.
jefflindsay.com

The scriptures tell us concerning Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit,

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Tim 2:14).

Eve was deceived by Satan and thus violated the law that God had given to her and to Adam. Adam, on the other hand, made a conscious decision to partake of the forbidden fruit in order to comply with the higher law.
What is the difference between a sin and a transgression? | Ask Gramps

Adam was not deceived. He deliberately broke the law knowing that he should not do it. Adam couldn't choose to break a lower law to comply with a higher law. According to Mormonism, he didn't know good from evil.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Poor Adam! There he stands in the garden, dumb as a rock and just as innocent, being forced to do something he had no knowledge of by Heavenly Father so that, in reality, he would gain immeasurable intelligence, thereby being able to sin intelligently. At the very least, Heavenly Father is amazingly cruel and sadistic.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I did not say they could not eat. I am sure they did. But they did not need to eat.

Man did not need to eat, but the food was there for them. They had perfect bodies created by God. They did not need food for nourishment.

So is eating for nourishment an imperfection?

 

[BarryK]

Again Adam and Eve disobeyed God. This does not make it a sin.

Adam disobeyed God, this makes it sin.

The disobedience resulted in the same punishment as if they did sin.

they recieved the penalty for sin, because they sinned
If this is not the case, are you saying that God is UN just?

They did not have enough knowledge to have committed sin.

Genesis 2:16 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die


God made it very clear, do not eat from THAT particular tree.
Adam chose to listen to his wife rather than God and did indeed eat from that particular tree.

In other words, God said "dont", Adam said "I'm gonna do it anyway"
at the verry least this is REBELLION

1 Samueal 15;22-23 (KJV)
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

rebellion is the same as witchcraft, which is sin

perhaps you have a different word that discribes disobeying God with willful intent, remember that The Word of God Himself is the ULTIMATE Law, and breaking that law is no mere "transgression"

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So if they had not partaken of the fruit, they would have been kicked out of the Garden anyway which they would not have been a sin either.

why would they have been kicked out?
why would they be kicked out for not sinning?

why have you not answered the question that you are alledgedly ressponding to

again, you are making death a pre-requisite for life. why is that?

 

[Rescued One]

The disobedience resulted in the same punishment as if they did sin.

Why? if Adam did not sin, why did he have pay a penalty? If a seven-year-old child commits a transgression, what penalty does God make him pay?

In scriptural terms, justice is the unchanging law that brings consequences for actions. Because of the law of justice, we receive blessings when we obey God's commandments. The law of justice also demands that a penalty be paid for every sin we commit.
Gospel Topics
lds.org

Alma 42​

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 

[BarryK]

A

why have you not answered the question that you are alledgedly ressponding to

again, you are making death a pre-requisite for life. why is that?

Bump For Fatboys,

thruout this thread, you appear to be making the argument that death (sin) is a pre-requisite for life.

could you clairify for us please?

 

[sk8Joyful]

Joseph Smith taught: "God himself,
finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent,
saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 354).

What is an intelligence?

(Answers to Gospel Questions,Vol. 4, p. 127)

"Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings"
Marion G. Romney, Ensign, Nov. 1978, p. 14

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence,"
which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit."
The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.74

Are all intelligences equal? No, some are more intelligent than others.



Any comments?

so God is a liar? now too. He said we were CREATED But
no,
"self-existing" intelligence, then organized itself into "spirit/s" which differentiated into various flesh.
surprise, we don't need no stinkin' god. Heck no, we can all be atheists, just like satan wants.
---
Personally, following God/Christ's revealed suggestions... just is a soul-safe , emotionally-freeing & physically-healthier way eternally to live, do you agree?

 

[Rescued One]

so God is a liar? now too. He said we were CREATED But
no,
"self-existing" intelligence, then organized itself into "spirit/s" which differentiated into various flesh.

Mormonism teaches that God procreated the self-existing intelligences into spirits and he organized the human bodies. They did not organize themselves.

 

[fatboys]

Why? if Adam did not sin, why did he have pay a penalty? If a seven-year-old child commits a transgression, what penalty does God make him pay?

God is just and justice is blind as to whether or not a person knows the law or not. The consequences are the same. For a child who is under the age of accountablility, Christ pays for those transgressions without there being repentance. When a child is baptized, at the age of accountability, it is symbolic of the baptism of Christ to which they need no baptism for the washing away of sin. They are still sinnless. This does not just apply to children. When an adult does not know the law, and transgresses that law, are they committing a sin? No. However the consequences for that disobedience is the same as if he did know. Now think about it. Christ paid for all transgressions. The pure innocent had pain that the natural man would shrivel and be as if they never existed. That was the great power of the Atonement. Every act of pain, both mental and physical was part of the atonement. From the time he entered the Garden until he said it was finished on the Cross. And after his death he broke the bands of death by being the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who have or will be born. A gift that came as promised in the preexistance when Christ presented the eternal plan of progression to which all that live on earth voted to accept.

What a great and wonderful gift. Not only that, but Christ paid for transgressions which for those laws we knowingly broke we only have to repent and follow him to receive God's great mercy of the washing away for our sins. If this was not so, then the power of Adam's choice would be more powerful than Christ's sacrifice and redemption.

In scriptural terms, justice is the unchanging law that brings consequences for actions. Because of the law of justice, we receive blessings when we obey God's commandments. The law of justice also demands that a penalty be paid for every sin we commit.

Gospel Topics
lds.org

Alma 42​

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Can you imagine a con man writting something as deep and meaningful as this?

 

[fatboys]

so God is a liar? now too. He said we were CREATED But
no,
"self-existing" intelligence, then organized itself into "spirit/s" which differentiated into various flesh.
surprise, we don't need no stinkin' god. Heck no, we can all be atheists, just like satan wants.
---
Personally, following God/Christ's revealed suggestions... just is a soul-safe , emotionally-freeing & physically-healthier way eternally to live, do you agree?

Why would you ask if God is a liar? Just because we interpret scriptures different does not mean that God is a liar. Let me ask this question. Do you believe that before God created, that he was alone? If so, how long had he been alone, and why did he feel the need to create at that time and not some other time. Once he begin to create, did God stay the same or did God have more?

 

[BarryK]

God is just and justice is blind as to whether or not a person knows the law or not. The consequences are the same. For a child who is under the age of accountablility, Christ pays for those transgressions without there being repentance. When a child is baptized, at the age of accountability, it is symbolic of the baptism of Christ to which they need no baptism for the washing away of sin. They are still sinnless. This does not just apply to children. When an adult does not know the law, and transgresses that law, are they committing a sin? No. However the consequences for that disobedience is the same as if he did know. Now think about it. Christ paid for all transgressions. The pure innocent had pain that the natural man would shrivel and be as if they never existed. That was the great power of the Atonement. Every act of pain, both mental and physical was part of the atonement. From the time he entered the Garden until he said it was finished on the Cross. And after his death he broke the bands of death by being the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who have or will be born. A gift that came as promised in the preexistance when Christ presented the eternal plan of progression to which all that live on earth voted to accept.

What a great and wonderful gift. Not only that, but Christ paid for transgressions which for those laws we knowingly broke we only have to repent and follow him to receive God's great mercy of the washing away for our sins. If this was not so, then the power of Adam's choice would be more powerful than Christ's sacrifice and redemption.





Can you imagine a con man writting something as deep and meaningful as this?

Yes, that is why they are called "con men"

 

[BarryK]

God is just and justice is blind as to whether or not a person knows the law or not....

are you saying that your god is blind?

the whole conceptr of "blind justice" os a concept that came down from the pagan greeks, it is not a Biblical concept, but a pagan one

 

[fatboys]

are you saying that your god is blind?

the whole conceptr of "blind justice" os a concept that came down from the pagan greeks, it is not a Biblical concept, but a pagan one

If you look long enough you can even find that the idea of a christ came from pagans.

Barry why do you do this everytime I say something? The concept of justice is of God. To be a just God, then does that not relate to justice. Justice only see's disobedience. Does not matter the circumstances, or promise that a person is totally sincere in changing and never disobeys again. The balance between Justice and Mercy can only be kept by God. In this life, we try to muttle justice with mercy. When we stand before God, we will know without any doubt that Jesus is the Christ and have no excuses. We will not say that God is unfair.

By the way, if you had read the verses from the Book of Mormon, you could see that it is a perfect explaination of Justice and Mercy.

 

[gort]

God is just and justice is blind as to whether or not a person knows the law or not. The consequences are the same. For a child who is under the age of accountablility, Christ pays for those transgressions without there being repentance. When a child is baptized, at the age of accountability, it is symbolic of the baptism of Christ to which they need no baptism for the washing away of sin. They are still sinnless. This does not just apply to children. When an adult does not know the law, and transgresses that law, are they committing a sin? No. However the consequences for that disobedience is the same as if he did know. Now think about it. Christ paid for all transgressions. The pure innocent had pain that the natural man would shrivel and be as if they never existed. That was the great power of the Atonement. Every act of pain, both mental and physical was part of the atonement. From the time he entered the Garden until he said it was finished on the Cross. And after his death he broke the bands of death by being the first fruits of the resurrection. A gift given to all who have or will be born. A gift that came as promised in the preexistance when Christ presented the eternal plan of progression to which all that live on earth voted to accept.

What a great and wonderful gift. Not only that, but Christ paid for transgressions which for those laws we knowingly broke we only have to repent and follow him to receive God's great mercy of the washing away for our sins. If this was not so, then the power of Adam's choice would be more powerful than Christ's sacrifice and redemption.





Can you imagine a con man writting something as deep and meaningful as this?

Actually, yes. I have a bridge to sell, are you interested?