Intelligences

[bbbbbbb]

Their bodies did not need food. They were perfect bodies made by God.

So, now we have Adam and Eve not needing to eat or to procreate, but being commanded by Heavenly Father to do the latter but disobeying Him by doing the former. May I ask if Adam and Eve were also entirely ignorant of eating since neither they nor any of the animals were doing it? In Genesis 2:6 Eve saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food (good to eat). If she had never eaten a thing nor had any need or desire to do so, why would she come to that conclusion? Also, how did the fruit get on the tree in the first place if there was no preacreation at all in the Garden?

 

[gort]

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold! I have given you every herb seeding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; to you it shall be for food.


Here we have procreation and a need for food.


fwiw...

 

[fatboys]

So, now we have Adam and Eve not needing to eat or to procreate, but being commanded by Heavenly Father to do the latter but disobeying Him by doing the former. May I ask if Adam and Eve were also entirely ignorant of eating since neither they nor any of the animals were doing it? In Genesis 2:6 Eve saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food (good to eat). If she had never eaten a thing nor had any need or desire to do so, why would she come to that conclusion? Also, how did the fruit get on the tree in the first place if there was no preacreation at all in the Garden?

I did not say they could not eat. I am sure they did. But they did not need to eat. Remember she was tempted to eat, being promised that it was very tasty.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I did not say they could not eat. I am sure they did. But they did not need to eat. Remember she was tempted to eat, being promised that it was very tasty.

To quote Gort's post (thank you, Gort) - Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold! I have given you every herb seeding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; to you it shall be for food.


Here we have procreation and a need for food.

How do you explain this?

 

[fatboys]

To quote Gort's post (thank you, Gort) - Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold! I have given you every herb seeding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; to you it shall be for food.


Here we have procreation and a need for food.

How do you explain this?

They were not to eat meat. Vegetarians. Death had not yet entered into the world. No animals had died. They did not have any desires to kill or eat each other until after the fall. Sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

 

[BarryK]

Logic dictates that if the world was in the same state as Adam and Eve, and since the fall affected the world, and since death had not yet come to the earth, it would make sense that if they could not die, they could not have babies.

well, the fall did not happen untill Genesis 3, but in Genesis 1,( which came before the fall), we read this:

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

How did the manage to be fruitful, multiply replenish and subdue the earth without procreating?

I encourage you to read your Bible, starting with Genesis 1!!!!

 

[BarryK]

I did not say they could not eat. I am sure they did. But they did not need to eat. Remember she was tempted to eat, being promised that it was very tasty.

again, read your bible!!!!


Genesis 3:1-6 (KJV)
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

the only "promise" ( which was a lie, as satan can not speak truth) was that she would be as "gods" knowing good and evil.
The woman was never promised anything concerning the "tastyness" of the fruit, but she had allread knew fruit and recgonized that this one was comestable

 

[sk8Joyful]

This part being true: "intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual."

 

[fatboys]

well, the fall did not happen untill Genesis 3, but in Genesis 1,( which came before the fall), we read this:

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

How did the manage to be fruitful, multiply replenish and subdue the earth without procreating?

I encourage you to read your Bible, starting with Genesis 1!!!!

I realize that there is nothing I can say that will mean anything to you. You will continue to say read your bible. I say that because you have already chosen to understand what Gen. is saying, that my understanding is not going to make sense to you as yours does not make sense to me. Again, because they were all in a innocent state they had no desires to mulitiply and replenish until after the fall. There was no death. If you can show me that there was death before the fall then I can at least understand where you are coming from. Man did not need to eat, but the food was there for them. They had perfect bodies created by God. They did not need food for nourishment.

 

[Rescued One]

(KJV)And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it[/U]: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

How did the manage to be fruitful, multiply replenish and subdue the earth without procreating?

I encourage you to read your Bible, starting with Genesis 1!!!!

There is no record of children being born to Adam and Eve before the Fall. That is not to say that they could not procreate. But the birth of Cain, their firstborn, is not mentioned until Genesis, Chapter Four.

 

[Rescued One]

Also, how did the fruit get on the tree in the first place if there was no preacreation at all in the Garden?

Good question, because fruits are the way that flowering plants procreate.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Okay, fatboys, I think we have progressed in our discussion to the following ponts of agreement:

1. There was procreation in the Garden of Eden as evidenced by the plants bearing fruit.
2. Adam and Eve were eating in the Garden of Eden.
3. There is no record that they killed animals for food, nor that they did not.

That leads to the following observatoins on my part.
1. Because there was procreation on the part of plants at least the Garden was being replenished as the seed of the plants took root and sprouted into new plants.
2. It is not at all unreasonable to think that not only the flora were procreating, but also the fauna were, as well as the Garden would have been quickly overgrown with plants if there was an insufficient supply of animals both to pollinate and to consume the fruits and nuts. For example, at the extreme end of the faunal spectrum we have bacteria. If God created only one of each type of bacteria and prevented them from procreating, the Garden would have a severe problem with decay of the fruit. A plant cannot sustain its fruit forever and naturally sheds it in one form or another, thus renewing the cycle of life for the plant.
3. If other fauna were procreating and Adam and Eve were forbidden to have any clue about the process, then they must have been dumb as rocks.

Obviously, we are remain in disagreement on the last three points, but please provide your response to at least the first three points.

Thanks.

 

[BarryK]

I realize that there is nothing I can say that will mean anything to you. You will continue to say read your bible. I say that because you have already chosen to understand what Gen. is saying, that my understanding is not going to make sense to you as yours does not make sense to me. Again, because they were all in a innocent state they had no desires to mulitiply and replenish until after the fall. There was no death. If you can show me that there was death before the fall then I can at least understand where you are coming from. Man did not need to eat, but the food was there for them. They had perfect bodies created by God. They did not need food for nourishment.

they had a commandment to multiply and replenish BEFORE the fall
Remember that Sin is disobiedence to GOd.
If they were disobiedient in the command to multiply and replenish, the result would have been the fall, the fall would have been earlier than Chapter three.

 

[fatboys]

Okay, fatboys, I think we have progressed in our discussion to the following ponts of agreement:

1. There was procreation in the Garden of Eden as evidenced by the plants bearing fruit.
2. Adam and Eve were eating in the Garden of Eden.
3. There is no record that they killed animals for food, nor that they did not.

That leads to the following observatoins on my part.
1. Because there was procreation on the part of plants at least the Garden was being replenished as the seed of the plants took root and sprouted into new plants.
2. It is not at all unreasonable to think that not only the flora were procreating, but also the fauna were, as well as the Garden would have been quickly overgrown with plants if there was an insufficient supply of animals both to pollinate and to consume the fruits and nuts. For example, at the extreme end of the faunal spectrum we have bacteria. If God created only one of each type of bacteria and prevented them from procreating, the Garden would have a severe problem with decay of the fruit. A plant cannot sustain its fruit forever and naturally sheds it in one form or another, thus renewing the cycle of life for the plant.
3. If other fauna were procreating and Adam and Eve were forbidden to have any clue about the process, then they must have been dumb as rocks.

Obviously, we are remain in disagreement on the last three points, but please provide your response to at least the first three points.

Thanks.

In the garden was placed plants that grew from seeds. They were perfect plants and did were self sustaining. There was no death in the Garden. Only after the fall was their death. The fall set in motion the life cycle we have today. Adam and Eve had no desire to procreate, and did not have knowledge of Good and evil, so they did not know or desire how to procreate. That is not to say they could not have procreated. The were in a innocent state.

 

[fatboys]

they had a commandment to multiply and replenish BEFORE the fall
Remember that Sin is disobiedence to GOd.
If they were disobiedient in the command to multiply and replenish, the result would have been the fall, the fall would have been earlier than Chapter three.

Since Adam and Eve were innocent and did not have knowledge of Good and evil. They also did not have any desire to multiply or have knowedge to do so. If they disobeyed Gods law, they would have transgressed the law. They did not have knowledge or comprehend the law with enough knowledge to be considered a sin. But you are correct that had they not multiplied, they would have been in disobedience and been guilty of transgressing the law. They would have then been cast out of the Garden. This was why Satan thought he had destroyed God's plan. The whole key is Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of knowledge of Good and evil through transgression in order to bring mortality into the world. Adam and Eve were created by God and had perfect bodies. They did not need food or drink, but could eat and drink if they desired.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the garden was placed plants that grew from seeds. They were perfect plants and did were self sustaining. There was no death in the Garden. Only after the fall was their death. The fall set in motion the life cycle we have today. Adam and Eve had no desire to procreate, and did not have knowledge of Good and evil, so they did not know or desire how to procreate. That is not to say they could not have procreated. The were in a innocent state.

These plants in the garden had fruit that could be eaten. Picking fruit from a plant does not cause the death of a plant. In fact, it is good for the health of some plants. Thus, eating the fruit was, on the whole, a good thing for the plants,

In order to bear fruit, plants usually have some form of procreation, because fruit is the result of procreation. Without plant procreation in the form of flowers there would have been no nectar for the bees to gather and thus sustain themselves. The would have died without flowers.

All fruits contain seeds and all nuts are seeds. Seeds typically are produced in great abundance so that at least some will grow into new plants bearing seed and fruit. If the animals and Adam and Eve did not keep the plants in check by some form then the garden would have quickly overgrown resulting in all sorts of harm.

Is procreation evil? Your comment about Adam and Eve not knowing good and evil seems to imply that procreation is evil. After the fall, assuming that the animals had not previously engaged in procreation, did they also gain the knowledge of Good and Evil and begin engaging in evil, and thus obey Heavenly Father's dictate to be fruitful and multiply? Is Heavenly Father the author of evil (procreation)?

Your final comment about Adam and Eve being innocent and thus unable to have procreated, means to me that they were amazingly stupid and/or that procreation is sinful and thus the antithesis of innocence.

 

[Rescued One]

In the garden was placed plants that grew from seeds. They were perfect plants and did were self sustaining.

Plants procreate. Otherwise there would be no more fruit. Adam and Eve would pick the fruit and the fruit would be gone.

There was no death in the Garden. Only after the fall was their death. The fall set in motion the life cycle we have today. Adam and Eve had no desire to procreate, and did not have knowledge of Good and evil, so they did not know or desire how to procreate. That is not to say they could not have procreated. The were in a innocent state.

2 Nephi 2
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

This is all extra-biblical teaching.

 

[Rescued One]

They did not need food or drink, but could eat and drink if they desired.

Which LDS scripture says this?

 

[Rescued One]

Is procreation evil? Your comment about Adam and Eve not knowing good and evil seems to imply that procreation is evil.

Procreation is absolutely not evil to LDS! It was more important to procreate(obey a higher law) that to obey the rule about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It was God's intent and sacred plan that they should have children, for as the Lord explains in Isaiah 45:18, He "created [the earth] not in vain, [but] he formed it to be inhabited." God gave Adam and Eve a higher and a lower commandment - multiply on one hand, or avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the other. God knew of Satan's intent to stir up disobedience, but was one step ahead. Yes, Satan deceived Eve, and she partook of the fruit, which meant that she would be cast out of the Garden. Then Adam had to choose between staying in the Garden of Eden without Eve, where he could never hope to multiply, or following Eve into mortality by partaking of the fruit in order to keep the higher law. Adam, in choosing to partake of the fruit, Adam was transgressing a lower commandment to keep the higher law. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not, as the Bible states in 1 Tim. 2:14. What does this passage mean under "mainstream" views of Adam as a villain? Is there a more reasonable explanation than the LDS perspective, which holds, as the Book of Mormon teaches, that "Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25)?

Yes, Adam faced a dilemma because of Eve's disobedience, and thus had to disobey one instruction to keep another that was more important (to multiply and replenish the earth).
jefflindsay.com

After the fall, assuming that the animals had not previously engaged in procreation, did they also gain the knowledge of Good and Evil and begin engaging in evil, and thus obey Heavenly Father's dictate to be fruitful and multiply?

Good question.

Your final comment about Adam and Eve being innocent and thus unable to have procreated, means to me that they were amazingly stupid and/or that procreation is sinful and thus the antithesis of innocence.

The LDS use of the word innocent here implies that they were like small children who do not yet know about the birds and the bees.

 

[BarryK]

In the garden was placed plants that grew from seeds. They were perfect plants and did were self sustaining. There was no death in the Garden. Only after the fall was their death. The fall set in motion the life cycle we have today. Adam and Eve had no desire to procreate, and did not have knowledge of Good and evil, so they did not know or desire how to procreate. That is not to say they could not have procreated. The were in a innocent state.

And yet again, READ YOUR BIBLE

Genesis 1:11-13 (KJV)
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

the grass, the herbs, and the trees are "bought forth" and then they yielded their seeds/fruit. That is to say Then they procreated

The problem here is that you seem to be saying thruout this tangent of a thread is that there can be no new life untill there is first death

in other words death is the cause of life.

Death is the result of sin, which is the destrudtion of life. Death is not necessary for life to be fruitful and multiply