inherently evil?

[holyrokker]

1 Corinthians 2:14-15
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"

What does this passage have to do with inherited sin? It's tells us why the things of God cannot be understood apart from the Holy Spirit, but those born of the Spirit can understand the things of God.

 

[holyrokker]

Ephesians 2:3
"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

The phrase "by nature" doesn't need to be interpreted as meaning "by birth".

Both Thayer's and Strong's lexicons say this about the Greek word "phusis" : "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature"

So, were we by nature children of wrath because of Adam, or because of ourselves. The latter is a valid interpretation of the phrase.

 

[armothe]

So, nice try, but you have not presented a biblical case which says that Christ's death on the cross did away with the sin nature that all human beings possess, whether Christian or not.

It's sorta hard to biblically argue against something that doesn't even exist (in scripture).

Sin is not the sin nature.

That's your answer? Sin caused sin nature and sin nature causes us to sin; yet they are not the same? Such statements lead me to believe you have no credibility on the subject. It's no wonder why the doctrine of inherited sin comes up short. With statements such as these how can we possibly even have a rational discussion on the topic?

-A

 

[Deren]

It's sorta hard to biblically argue against something that doesn't even exist (in scripture).

Actually, it's hard to argue against something that is biblically as plain as day.

That's your answer? Sin caused sin nature and sin nature causes us to sin; yet they are not the same?

No. Where did I say that sin caused sin nature?

Such statements lead me to believe you have no credibility on the subject.

And such misreading of what I actually said leads me to believe that you have no real interest in being corrected of your unbiblical beliefs.

It's no wonder why the doctrine of inherited sin comes up short.

Yeah, especially when plain statements are skewed by persons like yourself.

With statements such as these how can we possibly even have a rational discussion on the topic?

Well, quit putting words into my statements, and revising the meaning of what I did write, and we can have a rational discussion.

 

[Deren]

Again - you are assuming that this "sin nature" is inherited.

Are you now admitting that we all do have a sin nature? If so, they just where did it come from? If not, then why does anyone sin?

 

[Deren]

1 Corinthians 2:14-15
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"

What does this passage have to do with inherited sin?

It has everything to do with inherited sin, if you would address the whole of my comments, and quit divorcing them from the context of my posts.

It's tells us why the things of God cannot be understood apart from the Holy Spirit, but those born of the Spirit can understand the things of God.

Well, if it tells us why, then what is it? Just what makes a "natural man" (lit. psuchikos de anthropos - yuciko.j de. a;nqrwpoj) a natural man, and not a spiritually regenerated man?

 

[Deren]

Ephesians 2:3
"Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

The phrase "by nature" doesn't need to be interpreted as meaning "by birth".

Both Thayer's and Strong's lexicons say this about the Greek word "phusis" : "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature"

"Were by nature children of wrath (êmetha tekna phusei orgês). This is the proper order of these words which have been the occasion of much controversy. There is no article with tekna. Paul is insisting that Jews as well as Gentiles ("even as the rest") are the objects of God's wrath (orgês) because of their lives of sin.--A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in The New Testament, 5:524."​

And how has anyone been introduced to sin in their lives, which remains an inherent part of them until death?​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--​

Oh, and btw, Thayer's and Strong's are long outdated lexicons, yet a favorite of those who haven't studied biblical Greek. Is that true of you?​

So, were we by nature children of wrath because of Adam, or because of ourselves. The latter is a valid interpretation of the phrase

No, it is not a valid intepretation, simply because the overall context of not only Eph. 2:3, but the rest of the Bible does not give it warrant. All people are inherently sinful because of their association with Adam, and there is no escaping that fact unless one just completely ignores what the Bible has to say.

 

[Deren]

I deny the teaching that all mankind inherits sin.

Then you also deny what the Bible has to say on the subject.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
​

The reason why anyone dies is because of their being "in Adam," who sinned, and then passed that same propensity to sin on to his progeny. And I don't know of any man, other than Elijah and possibly Enoch, who has not died. And the only reason they didn't die was because made a direct intervention on their part and took them. Other than that, everyone else has been right on schedule, meeting their appointments with death, which was brought on through their association with Adam and the sin nature he passed on to them.

 

[armothe]

No. Where did I say that sin caused sin nature?

You don't believe Adam's sin caused the inherited sin nature in all of us?

-A

 

[armothe]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Why did death spread? "Because all sinned" It doesn't say that death spread because all are inherently sinful but rather because all have committed the act of sinning. Please tell me how a 6 week old fetus commits sin.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

How in the world does the above passage prove inherited sin nature? Adam's sin caused his own spiritual death; and his concurrent sinful actions were observed by his family who then practiced sin and caused their own spiritual deaths. Thankfully, Christ came and reversed the effects of spiritual death for those who believe in Him.

-A

 

[Deren]

You don't believe Adam's sin caused the inherited sin nature in all of us?

-A

Being related to Adam as human beings is the reason we have a sin nature. Sin itself cannot "cause" anything, because it is not a person. It is a decision to rebel against God. And since Adam decided, first, to rebel against God, human nature was changed where it has a propensity to sin quite easily, while struggling to live as God intended.

 

[Deren]

Why did death spread? "Because all sinned" It doesn't say that death spread because all are inherently sinful but rather because all have committed the act of sinning. Please tell me how a 6 week old fetus commits sin.

And why does a person sin at all?

And obviously a 6 week old fetus cannot commit the same kinds of sin that you and I do on a daily basis, but that does not exclude him/her from being a sinner in God's estimation, due to the inherent sin nature that everyone possesses. The Bible says that "all have sinned," not just the 30 year-old banker who has embezzled $500,000 from his bank.

How in the world does the above passage prove inherited sin nature?

Because all men die, that's how.

Adam's sin caused his own spiritual death; and his concurrent sinful actions were observed by his family who then practiced sin and caused their own spiritual deaths.

Incorrect. Adam didn't just cause his own spiritual death, but he caused everyone else's as well, given our relationship to Adam.

Thankfully, Christ came and reversed the effects of spiritual death for those who believe in Him.

Yet, just because Jesus gives spiritual life does not mean that the sin nature was abolished. Again, read Romans 7.

 

[holyrokker]

How do you interpret Romans 2:14?

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature (Greek "phusis")things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law"

How can someone who is a sinner by nature do by nature the things required by the law?

 

[holyrokker]

1 Corinthians 15:21
"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

Is there anyone affected by Adam that is not affected by Christ?

If everyone is automatically dead in sin because of Christ, then everyone would have to automatically be made alive.

You can't have one without the other.

Adam brought sin and death into the world, Jesus brought righteousness and life into the world.

 

[armothe]

The Bible says that "all have sinned," not just the 30 year-old banker who has embezzled $500,000 from his bank.

So are you including Jesus the Christ in your interpretation of "all"?

Because all men die, that's how.

If Adam's sin caused physical death, then why wouldn't Christ's death reverse this?

Incorrect. Adam didn't just cause his own spiritual death, but he caused everyone else's as well, given our relationship to Adam.

How can one man's sin be attributed to another/s? From what I understand in scripture we are each accountable for our own sin.

Yet, just because Jesus gives spiritual life does not mean that the sin nature was abolished. Again, read Romans 7.

Yeah, it talks about how Paul was sinless and pure before the law arrived. And when it did, he became sinful and spiritually dead.

-A

 

[Deren]

How do you interpret Romans 2:14?

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature (Greek "phusis")things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law"

How can someone who is a sinner by nature do by nature the things required by the law?

Romans 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Just because everyone is a sinner does not preclude them from doing certainly things consistent with what is found in the Law, simply because God has "written" it there.​

 

[Deren]

1 Corinthians 15:21
"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

Is there anyone affected by Adam that is not affected by Christ?

If everyone is automatically dead in sin because of Christ, then everyone would have to automatically be made alive.

You can't have one without the other.

Adam brought sin and death into the world, Jesus brought righteousness and life into the world.

Quite to the contrary. For we know from other Scriptures that while Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient in paying the sin debt of all humanity, not all of humanity will partake of the benefit of being spiritually regenerated. In fact, only a few will.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14 "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Deren]

So are you including Jesus the Christ in your interpretation of "all"?

Ask an intelligent question.

If Adam's sin caused physical death, then why wouldn't Christ's death reverse this?

Adam's sin didn't just cause physical death. Besides, your question is the undoing of your fallacious hamartiology, given that all people still die. For it is only because of the remaining sin nature that anyone dies.

How can one man's sin be attributed to another/s?

It wasn't.

From what I understand in scripture we are each accountable for our own sin.

We are.

Yeah, it talks about how Paul was sinless and pure before the law arrived. And when it did, he became sinful and spiritually dead.

Oh, it talks about much more than that. Above all it clearly shows that just because a person is born again does not remove the sin nature, and Paul knew it. Now, why is it that you don't know that same thing?

 

[armothe]

Ask an intelligent question.

So then you agree that when Paul says all have sinned it doesn't really mean all does it? You see, the scripture you use to prove your doctrine already has an exception to it.

Adam's sin didn't just cause physical death. Besides, your question is the undoing of your fallacious hamartiology, given that all people still die. For it is only because of the remaining sin nature that anyone dies.

I agree, Christ's death did not reverse the effects of physical death. Which is why many of us question as to whether or not Adam's sin even caused physical death in the first place. Perhaps God created things with life cycles and Adam's sin simply caused spiritual death.

You believe sin is passed on genetically. I believe its passed on through observation.

You are trying to find a reason why we sin. Your answer is this so called genetically passed down sin nature. When in reality the reason we sin is the same reason we don't sin. It's not sin nature, its human nature. God created us with the ability to choose to do both good things and bad things.

When Adam experienced that twinkle of lust/greed and disobeyed God for the first time it opened his eyes to what was bad verses what was good. No doubt he experienced the same emotions again which caused him to sin again and again throughout the duration of his lifetime. Sometimes he sinned, sometimes he didn't, sometimes he actually was righteous. The fact is that his (and our) actions are simply a choice we make based on our environment. This ability to choose is the way that God, in His sovereignty, created mankind.

Through Christ, God no longer views us as sinners. This is why we can ask God into our hearts and walk with him - much like Adam did prior to his sin. Because we now walk in the light we are much more informed and motivated to choose to do good things rather than bad things. Yes, we will still choose bad things once in awhile, but the Christian's goal should be to become as Christlike as possible - which means doing their best to make good decisions and doing the things that are righteous in the eyes of God.

-A

 

[TruthMiner]

So then you agree that when Paul says all have sinned it doesn't really mean all does it? You see, the scripture you use to prove your doctrine already has an exception to it.



I agree, Christ's death did not reverse the effects of physical death. Which is why many of us question as to whether or not Adam's sin even caused physical death in the first place. Perhaps God created things with life cycles and Adam's sin simply caused spiritual death.

You believe sin is passed on genetically. I believe its passed on through observation.

You are trying to find a reason why we sin. Your answer is this so called genetically passed down sin nature. When in reality the reason we sin is the same reason we don't sin. It's not sin nature, its human nature. God created us with the ability to choose to do both good things and bad things.

When Adam experienced that twinkle of lust/greed and disobeyed God for the first time it opened his eyes to what was bad verses what was good. No doubt he experienced the same emotions again which caused him to sin again and again throughout the duration of his lifetime. Sometimes he sinned, sometimes he didn't, sometimes he actually was righteous. The fact is that his (and our) actions are simply a choice we make based on our environment. This ability to choose is the way that God, in His sovereignty, created mankind.

Through Christ, God no longer views us as sinners. This is why we can ask God into our hearts and walk with him - much like Adam did prior to his sin. Because we now walk in the light we are much more informed and motivated to choose to do good things rather than bad things. Yes, we will still choose bad things once in awhile, but the Christian's goal should be to become as Christlike as possible - which means doing their best to make good decisions and doing the things that are righteous in the eyes of God.

-A

Adam was made out of dust.

Adam sinned.

The dust was cursed to die.

We are all the flesh of Adam.

Hence, we die.

The Hebrew word for humanity is adam. Death comes to all adam because Adam sinned. The power of Adam's transgression reigns over us in this manner.

And that is all there is to it.