Infused vs. Imputed

[bugkiller]

I am sorry, I just cannot connect this to what I was speaking of . . . can u clarify how u get this from my comment?

thnx

I don't do this often, as a matter of fact this is the forst time. Did you read Fomans 7, what say at least the first 6 or 7 verses about relationship with the law?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I understand. I would have to disagree though that the severity of the angels' sin explains how they still have sin despite being non-physical. I also don't think our sin necessarily exists because we are physical. Many temptations aren't even dependent upon being physical at all, such as pride or envy.

I thought sin was sin a white lie is as bad as a black one.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Glorification is the final transformation but Hebrews says sanctification is a process that leads there.

Holy~ set apart~ sanctified~ set apart to God for a purpose.

Holiness is the nature.
　
Sanctified (to God) is the practical effect, the character in activity.
　
the intent of the author is to show the
heavenly nature that is to be produced by holy sanctification.
　
1) going on to perfection (6:1)
2) drawing nigh to God (7:19)
3) pertaining to conscience (9:9)
4) purged unto perfection (10:1-2)
5) boldly entering God's presence (10:19-20)
6) partakers of holiness to see God (12:10,14)
7) perfect in every good work (13:21)

OK so I'm having a Senior moment. You wouldn't like to speak to these verses you just refered to a little more in detail as to how they pertain to an ongoing process?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Of course the issue of sin starts in the being . . . it is ontological. Hence, one can sin by just lusting in the heart.

For the CHRISTIAN tho, the one who is born again from inside is not in the clutches of the sin problem in the inner man. That inner man has been bornagain and the old inner man has been crucified with Christ. So, for the CHRISTIAN, whose heart has been redeemed, the issue IS one of flesh primarily . . . for w/o the flesh and its evil inclination the Christian is a redeemed soul. With the flesh u have a redeemed soul who wars against the flesh until the day that the flesh is fully and finally crucified.

The issues of life is not the process of sanctification. The issues of life happen whether or not you are a christian.

bugkiller

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The issues of life is not the process of sanctification. The issues of life happen whether or not you are a christian.

bugkiller

and herein lies the problem, did u do the work of finding the Ah ha with frog?

U problem is with the terminology.

Here is the understanding:

Calvinist and Evangelical theologians, such as John Piper, interpret sanctification as the process of being made holy only through the merits and justification of Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. [1] Sanctification cannot be attained by any works based process, but only through the works and power of the divine. Sanctification is seen as a process in Calvinism and not instantaneous. [2] As the process of sanctification flows, the person becomes, in their essence, a different person/man. When a man is unregenerate, it is their essence that sins and does evil. But when a man is justified through Christ, it is no longer the man (in his essence) that sins, but the man is acting outside of his character. In other words, the man is not being himself, he is not being true to who he is. [3]

from wikipedia

The sanctified heart works itself outward thru the man because of the internal work of the Spirit . . . YES we are instantaneously sanctified . . . our hearts are changed . . . but the PROCESS of what happens in the heart must also GROW outward through the body . . . not in order to sanctify or redeem the flesh, but in order to CRUCIFY the flesh so that the external actions of the individual are in keeping with the internal reality of the changed heart.

This is FORMALLY called sanctification. Whatever NAME u give this process, fine. But in theological circles it is called the doctrine of sanctification, and tho the heart is instantaneously sanctified in the miracle of the new birth, that action, in formal theology, belongs to the doctrine of justification.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I don't do this often, as a matter of fact this is the forst time. Did you read Fomans 7, what say at least the first 6 or 7 verses about relationship with the law?

bugkiller

Dude, I kno what it says. What I want from u is the detailed connection of how, exactly u think this connects to my position.

Thanks

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Thank you.
Ok.

Do you believe that as per rom 5,all humanity,which were in Adam,were dead,in sin,evil,and declared or judged sinners,under wrath,condemned,an old creation,era,the whole nine yards?

Yes (tho I have more if u will allow )

 

[bugkiller]

and herein lies the problem, did u do the work of finding the Ah ha with frog?

U problem is with the terminology.

Here is the understanding:

Calvinist and Evangelical theologians, such as John Piper, interpret sanctification as the process of being made holy only through the merits and justification of Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. [1] Sanctification cannot be attained by any works based process, but only through the works and power of the divine. Sanctification is seen as a process in Calvinism and not instantaneous. [2] As the process of sanctification flows, the person becomes, in their essence, a different person/man. When a man is unregenerate, it is their essence that sins and does evil. But when a man is justified through Christ, it is no longer the man (in his essence) that sins, but the man is acting outside of his character. In other words, the man is not being himself, he is not being true to who he is. [3]

from wikipedia

The sanctified heart works itself outward thru the man because of the internal work of the Spirit . . . YES we are instantaneously sanctified . . . our hearts are changed . . . but the PROCESS of what happens in the heart must also GROW outward through the body . . . not in order to sanctify or redeem the flesh, but in order to CRUCIFY the flesh so that the external actions of the individual are in keeping with the internal reality of the changed heart.

This is FORMALLY called sanctification. Whatever NAME u give this process, fine. But in theological circles it is called the doctrine of sanctification, and tho the heart is instantaneously sanctified in the miracle of the new birth, that action, in formal theology, belongs to the doctrine of justification.

I hear what you are saying. Just because that is talked about in theological circles doesn't give it validity. Jesus did not agree with the theology of his time on earth either. And they did not like Him one little itty bit. In fact they hated Him so much they finally contrived a way to get rid of Him. Didn't work, did it satan? What they did only caused them more trouble.

In life we go from diapers to training pants to big person undies but it is not sanctification. Growing into spiritual maturity is no different.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Yes (tho I have more if u will allow )

No add oddons..
ok,we have totally covered adam,flesh,sin,old creation,old era..etc.

next question.

Do you believe that we are baptized into his death,risen with Christ,set free from sin,as he is,a new creation,his righteousness,under a reign of grace,not law,new creations where the old has passed away,where Christ lives in us,and we are not corrupt flesh..basically the total opposite of life under Adam,who we really are in Christ.?

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

 

[bugkiller]

Dude, I kno what it says. What I want from u is the detailed connection of how, exactly u think this connects to my position.

Thanks

Swell, would be so kind as to tell me in your own words what it says. I like you know what it says, but I need you to verbalized it for me. Yes I know this sounds strange. And I am not going to tell you to trust me. Only a lawyer and politician would do that. OK some religious folks too.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

and herein lies the problem, did u do the work of finding the Ah ha with frog?

U problem is with the terminology.

Here is the understanding:

Calvinist and Evangelical theologians, such as John Piper, interpret sanctification as the process of being made holy only through the merits and justification of Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. [1] Sanctification cannot be attained by any works based process, but only through the works and power of the divine. Sanctification is seen as a process in Calvinism and not instantaneous. [2] As the process of sanctification flows, the person becomes, in their essence, a different person/man. When a man is unregenerate, it is their essence that sins and does evil. But when a man is justified through Christ, it is no longer the man (in his essence) that sins, but the man is acting outside of his character. In other words, the man is not being himself, he is not being true to who he is. [3]

from wikipedia

The sanctified heart works itself outward thru the man because of the internal work of the Spirit . . . YES we are instantaneously sanctified . . . our hearts are changed . . . but the PROCESS of what happens in the heart must also GROW outward through the body . . . not in order to sanctify or redeem the flesh, but in order to CRUCIFY the flesh so that the external actions of the individual are in keeping with the internal reality of the changed heart.

This is FORMALLY called sanctification. Whatever NAME u give this process, fine. But in theological circles it is called the doctrine of sanctification, and tho the heart is instantaneously sanctified in the miracle of the new birth, that action, in formal theology, belongs to the doctrine of justification.

That wikepedia quote does not sit right,because we were circumcised,when saved.It says put off.

Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

You know what dude.I like you ,don't take this personal..

But really the sanctification crowd,are really just stuck under law,seeing there flesh aroused,which convinces them the need to somehow hope tomorrow,they will be holier,failing to realize that they already are,if it were not for the law,bringing their consciences into a snare.

 

[MrPolo]

I thought sin was sin a white lie is as bad as a black one.

You mean stealing a paper clip and raping a child are equally bad, right?

 

[Frogster]

You mean stealing a paper clip and raping a child are equally bad, right?

Oh come on..

 

[bugkiller]

Matheses the kerux,

What are you redeemed (saved) from?

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Matheses the kerux,

What are you redeemed (saved) from?

bugkiller

you got em!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Matheses the kerux,

What are you redeemed (saved) from?

bugkiller

The wrath of God . . .

 

[Frogster]

The wrath of God . . .

Aaaaand where was the wrath.Adam?The old creation.



Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Soooooo..what about the new creation,does it need sanctification?

As you know,that is where by questionaire was headed.

So Matt..it says we are raised up as he was.Does he need sanctification? Does the new creation need sanctification?


Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Nice talking to you,

 

[bugkiller]

You mean stealing a paper clip and raping a child are equally bad, right?

What is the penalty for stealing under the law? Does the law provide for degrees or levels of sin? So yep you got it right they are equally bad, both can bring the same punishment under the law, death.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The wrath of God . . .

I'll let ya have a second guess. Gotta admit it was a tuff question.

bugkiller

 

[MrPolo]

So yep you got it right they are equally bad

So if that's true, we should not find in Scripture any examples of one sin being called greater than another, correct?