Infant Salvation

[GillDouglas]

Do those who die in infancy receive salvation? From my understanding, the Scriptures teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved, but what of the unbelievers? We understand that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as adults. However, I believe that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves and death in infancy depends entirely of God's providence that their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved.

If these ideas are true, it brings up a few interesting complications for other camps involving salvation. As we often state, there is no salvation apart from Christ and if the redemption of the these babies happens regardless of any faith, repentance, baptism, or good works, we know it to be certain. According to some, God's grace has merely provided men with an opportunity for salvation. However, if just one of these babies dies in infancy and is saved, this doctrine is destroyed.

 

[bling]

Do those who die in infancy receive salvation? From my understanding, the Scriptures teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved, but what of the unbelievers? We understand that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as adults. However, I believe that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves and death in infancy depends entirely of God's providence that their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved.

If these ideas are true, it brings up a few interesting complications for other camps involving salvation. As we often state, there is no salvation apart from Christ and if the redemption of the these babies happens regardless of any faith, repentance, baptism, or good works, we know it to be certain. According to some, God's grace has merely provided men with an opportunity for salvation. However, if just one of these babies dies in infancy and is saved, this doctrine is destroyed.

First off: Where does scripture say believer’s children are saved any differently than none believer children?

Where do you get the idea we “inherited sin”? The Bible talks about us dying because we all sin?

Where does the Bible talk about how children are to behave?

The innocent do not have to be redeemed/saved?

 

[GillDouglas]

First off: Where does scripture say believer’s children are saved any differently than none believer children?

Where do you get the idea we “inherited sin”? The Bible talks about us dying because we all sin?

Where does the Bible talk about how children are to behave?

The innocent do not have to be redeemed/saved?

In Galatians 3:29 Paul says that if we are Christ's, we are Abraham's heir according to the covenant. If we look back at the promise made to Abraham in Genesis 17:7, God mentions Abraham and his offspring. There are many verses that talk about being born into sin, and the natural state of man. It's the curse that's passed down from generation to generation beginning with Adam. In Psalm 51:5 David recognizes that we have inherited sin from the first man for his disobedience, through the flesh of our ancestors. In John 3:6 he states that we are of the flesh until we are reborn of the Spirit. Paul tells us in Romans 7:18-29 that there is no good in him, within in his flesh, and he is unable to do anything good outside of the Spirit. Because we are born in sin and under the curse we are all unworthy.

 

[Mediaeval]

God's Son is the Savior of the world, and so necessarily the Savior of all who die in infancy.

 

[GillDouglas]

God's Son is the Savior of the world, and so necessarily the Savior of all who die in infancy.

Indeed, and there was nothing the infant could do to earn/accept/resist that salvation. It is freely given through His grace and mercy.

 

[Steeno7]

Do those who die in infancy receive salvation? From my understanding, the Scriptures teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved, but what of the unbelievers? We understand that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as adults. However, I believe that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves and death in infancy depends entirely of God's providence that their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved.

If these ideas are true, it brings up a few interesting complications for other camps involving salvation. As we often state, there is no salvation apart from Christ and if the redemption of the these babies happens regardless of any faith, repentance, baptism, or good works, we know it to be certain. According to some, God's grace has merely provided men with an opportunity for salvation. However, if just one of these babies dies in infancy and is saved, this doctrine is destroyed.

We simply can't say with absolute certainty, and I believe God has left it that way for good reason.

 

[AndOne]

Do those who die in infancy receive salvation? From my understanding, the Scriptures teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved, but what of the unbelievers? We understand that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as adults. However, I believe that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves and death in infancy depends entirely of God's providence that their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved.

If these ideas are true, it brings up a few interesting complications for other camps involving salvation. As we often state, there is no salvation apart from Christ and if the redemption of the these babies happens regardless of any faith, repentance, baptism, or good works, we know it to be certain. According to some, God's grace has merely provided men with an opportunity for salvation. However, if just one of these babies dies in infancy and is saved, this doctrine is destroyed.

I brought this up a few years ago - got no takers then either. This is a very challenging dilemma for the synergist that most seem afraid to address.

 

[EmSw]

Do those who die in infancy receive salvation? From my understanding, the Scriptures teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved, but what of the unbelievers? We understand that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as adults. However, I believe that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves and death in infancy depends entirely of God's providence that their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved.

If a man's father was a wife abuser and drunkard, would the son be guilty of his father's sins and go to hell for them? Ridiculous, most would say. A man's is responsible for his own sins he commits. Yet, some want to burden all men with the sin of Adam. Sins and associated guilt is not passed down from generation to generation.

Here again, the truth of God's word in Ezekiel 18 is totally ignored, or is foolishness to those who believe such a doctrine as original sin. We read this from Ezekiel 18 -

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

How could it be any more clear? THE SON SHALL NOT BEAR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER! It's amazing how any man would ignore the plain teaching of Ezekiel; it seems to be foolishness to them.

If these ideas are true, it brings up a few interesting complications for other camps involving salvation. As we often state, there is no salvation apart from Christ and if the redemption of the these babies happens regardless of any faith, repentance, baptism, or good works, we know it to be certain. According to some, God's grace has merely provided men with an opportunity for salvation. However, if just one of these babies dies in infancy and is saved, this doctrine is destroyed.

Did Jesus need to be saved? If so, where does it say He needed salvation? If not, why did He not need salvation?

Jesus did not need salvation because HE DID NOT SIN! Salvation is saving a man from sin! It is sin which condemns a man to hell! It is sin which corrupts the heart!

Jesus came to save man from sin.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He came to save people from THEIR sins, not from their father's sins, nor from Adam's sins.

Why would salvation be needed for someone who hasn't committed any sins? Newborns and infants haven't sinned. James plainly tells us when sin is birthed in man.

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

First of all, man is tempted and drawn away by HIS own desires, or lust and enticed. Newborns and infants cannot be tempted by their lusts. Put a newborn male in a room with nude women; temptation would be futile with newborns. Now, put a 25-year-old male in the same room; temptation would run rampant. Newborns cannot be tempted with lying, stealing, bribery, hate, murder, adultery, or any other sin. A newborn certainly cannot be enticed by any temptation.

Not being drawn away by any evil desires, there is no birth to sin for infants. Since there is no birth to sin, salvation from sin is not needed for infants.

 

[sahjimira]

Infants have not reached the age of accountability knowing right from wrong. I think God receives them

 

[GillDouglas]

Did Jesus need to be saved? If so, where does it say He needed salvation? If not, why did He not need salvation?

Jesus did not need salvation because HE DID NOT SIN! Salvation is saving a man from sin! It is sin which condemns a man to hell! It is sin which corrupts the heart!

Jesus came to save man from sin.

Though Jesus was completely man and completely God, He is not the son of Adam, therefore He did not inherit the curse which is why He is the ONLY man to ever live without sin. He was incapable of sin because He is God, and wasn't burdened by the internal temptation that we suffer.

At what point does a child inherit this curse if not at birth?

 

[EmSw]

Though Jesus was completely man and completely God, He is not the son of Adam, therefore He did not inherit the curse which is why He is the ONLY man to ever live without sin. He was incapable of sin because He was God, and wasn't burdened by the internal temptation that we suffer.

At what point does a child inherit this curse if not at birth?

What curse are you referring to? Are you saying the creation of God, to which every man belongs, is cursed? Are you sure you want to make God the creator of cursed beings? That which is created can only have the attributes of its Creator.

Are you saying the curse of Adam is mightier than God? Does this curse rule over God?

 

[GillDouglas]

What curse are you referring to? Are you saying the creation of God, to which every man belongs, is cursed? Are you sure you want to make God the creator of cursed beings? That which is created can only have the attributes of its Creator.

Are you saying the curse of Adam is mightier than God? Does this curse rule over God?

The curse of sin passed down from generation to generation for Adam's disobedience. Mankind is certainly ruled by the curse, but do not fear, we have a Savoir who able to pull His people out of that curse making them new.

 

[GillDouglas]

Infants have not reached the age of accountability knowing right from wrong. I think God receives them

What age is that, exactly? I certainly agree He receives them, but not for the child ability to know right from wrong but rather His mercy.

 

[nobdysfool]

Who is it that denies that men are born corrupt because they are the offspring of Adam, AFTER he corrupted himself by sinning? God created all living things to reproduce after their own kind, so Adam, being corrupted by sin, could not sire an uncorrupted son or daughter. Doubly so since Eve also sinned and corrupted herself. Two corrupted parents cannot bring for uncorrupted offspring.

That is not holding anyone to account for Adam's sin. Adam answered for his sin. Each man answers for his own sin. But since all men are born corrupted, born sinners, sin in their life is inevitable, and starts at an early age. the corruption is not placing the charge for Adam's sin on anyone else. And to be clear, we are all products of reproduction, not direct creations by God, as Adam and Eve were.

Age of accountability? Where is that in the Bible?

 

[bling]

In Galatians 3:29 Paul says that if we are Christ's, we are Abraham's heir according to the covenant. If we look back at the promise made to Abraham in Genesis 17:7, God mentions Abraham and his offspring. There are many verses that talk about being born into sin, and the natural state of man. It's the curse that's passed down from generation to generation beginning with Adam. In Psalm 51:5 David recognizes that we have inherited sin from the first man for his disobedience, through the flesh of our ancestors. In John 3:6 he states that we are of the flesh until we are reborn of the Spirit. Paul tells us in Romans 7:18-29 that there is no good in him, within in his flesh, and he is unable to do anything good outside of the Spirit. Because we are born in sin and under the curse we are all unworthy.

As scripture says: “If you belong to Christ”, but it says nothing about our descendants being children of God or Abraham? It repeatedly points out the fact that being a physical descendant of Abraham or physical descendants of the seed of Abraham, does not mean you automatically heir to the promise.

David was not four generations removed from Ruth and Boaz, so he was born in sin in that respect.

I have no problem with the understand those prior to accepting God’s free gift of Love (charity, grace, mercy, forgiveness) can do nothing of value for God, themselves or anyone else. BUT that does not mean they cannot ACCEPT God free gift for selfish reasons (like the prodigal son accepted his father’s charity to continue to live, get out of a truly tragic situation and/or have at least some kind of live). The prodigal son did nothing “worthy” of anything and we do nothing “worthy” of anything for our salvation.

Paul in Ro. 7 could easily realize he needed more help then he alone could provide, but that does not mean he could not humbly willingly accept that help from God, if he allowed himself to accept.

We just want to allow the Spirit to work through us to do the good He can do and quit trying to go it alone.


There are plenty of “offsprings” of Abraham that were not saved, so how can you say: “Christian offsprings are in a saved condition”?

Is salvation an individual thing or a corporate thing?

 

[EmSw]

The curse of sin passed down from generation to generation for Adam's disobedience. Mankind is certainly ruled by the curse, but do not fear, we have a Savoir who able to pull His people out of that curse making them new.

From where exactly do you get man is born under a curse? Man is born in the image and likeness of God.

 

[EmSw]

Who is it that denies that men are born corrupt because they are the offspring of Adam, AFTER he corrupted himself by sinning? God created all living things to reproduce after their own kind, so Adam, being corrupted by sin, could not sire an uncorrupted son or daughter. Doubly so since Eve also sinned and corrupted herself. Two corrupted parents cannot bring for uncorrupted offspring.

That is not holding anyone to account for Adam's sin. Adam answered for his sin. Each man answers for his own sin. But since all men are born corrupted, born sinners, sin in their life is inevitable, and starts at an early age. the corruption is not placing the charge for Adam's sin on anyone else. And to be clear, we are all products of reproduction, not direct creations by God, as Adam and Eve were.

Age of accountability? Where is that in the Bible?

I deny it. Where do you get man is born corrupt?

Why do you think you are not a creation of God? Who created you then?

Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isaiah 43:7
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Why would one say God creates corrupt things? Is corruption mightier than God? Does corruption rule over God?

 

[nobdysfool]

I deny it. Where do you get man is born corrupt?

Where do you get the idea man is not born corrupt?

Why do you think you are not a creation of God?

Were you, personally, formed from the dust of the ground?

Who created you then?

indirectly, God. Directly, my parents. A little thing called procreation.

Why would one say God creates corrupt things? Is corruption mightier than God? Does corruption rule over God?

These are stupid questions, based on a stupid premise. Please show me in Scripture where men are born uncorrupted. All men are children of Adam. Adam sired children AFTER he sinned, and therefore produced children who were like him: corrupted, and prone to sin. he could not produce any other. And all have sinned, as the scripture says, which proves that they were corrupt. God didn't create corruption, but He allowed it, for His Purposes. No man, no child of Adam is born incorrupt.

Can you show me one person who was sinless, other than Christ? Name one person who was sinless from birth other than Jesus. You can't. Because there were not and are not any. So all your huff and puff and indignation about what I said is a smokescreen, because Scripture proves my words correct.

 

[GillDouglas]

From where exactly do you get man is born under a curse? Man is born in the image and likeness of God.

To start we can look at the warning God gave to Adam in Genesis 2:17: "But the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die" We know that Adam did not physically die when he ate the fruit. This is the beginning of spiritual death, separation from God and the inclination to sin for all mankind.

In regards to the descendants of Adam. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many." Romans 5:12-15

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:14 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understand, There is none the seek after God;" Romans 3:10-12

In regards to the nature we're born into, and the need for Christ. "The natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged." 1 Corinthians 2:14 "And you did He make alive, when you were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience; among whom you also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" Ephesians 2:1-3

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Truly, truly, I say unto you, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature" 2 Corinthians 5:17

Man's inability to commune with God and do any spiritual good is due to the curse of sin that came not by He who made us, but the first man Adam. Paul tells us in many ways that we are dead, estranged to God and completely helpless. Fortunately for us God had prepared a path for redemption through His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I deny it. Where do you get man is born corrupt?

Explain what "by nature, children of wrath" means.