Infant Baptism

[JacksBratt]

You're talking about others being saved by your actions. We're talking about people being initiated into the Life of the people of the New Covenant, through the rite of Holy Baptism, and then being brought up in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, as found in the Gospels, which often leads to salvation.

Still... no matter.. The child isn't even aware of the day, week, weather, or the fact that it is going to grow up or anything...

So, we cannot do anything.. not even any "ceremony" or action or sprinkling.. that will have any effect on the child's eternal home when it dies.

And.... Not sprinkling or baptizing will not condemn the child either... It's a nice thought... but..nope.. That child will have to grow up and make it's own choice to accept Christ.

 

[Thess]

All great scriptures... But I have never seen one that justifies the belief that I can save anyone... not even myself. My actions may cause some to stumble and others to seek Christ.. But only Christ can save and nothing I do, even though I wish I could... can save anyone.... not even myself.

[Act 2:40 NLT] 40 Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation!"

 

[JacksBratt]

The one that comes most immediately to mind is John 3:16.

You said that God has chosen salvation for "Certain individuals" John 3:16 says "for God so loved the "world"... That's everyone.. not just certain individuals...

Even then.. even though Christ died for all humans... not all accept Him.. A baptized baby may grow up to reject Him. Sad but true.

 

[Halbhh]

All great scriptures... But I have never seen one that justifies the belief that I can save anyone... not even myself. My actions may cause some to stumble and others to seek Christ.. But only Christ can save and nothing I do, even though I wish I could... can save anyone.... not even myself.

We agree perfectly on those points. In that post 112, we are considering examples of what we are responsible to do, even though our actions are not the actions that matter. We are to show Christ to others, even though our actions are not the actions that matter, ultimately. We are to follow Him, spread the Good News, love others -- even though our actions are not saving in themselves, nevertheless we are to do them, or one might word it that we are to not refuse to do them. I sometimes think of the analogy that we are like little children and we are to take the hand of our Father, and follow, with His help. We are not to refuse to take His hand, or refuse to toddle, to walk, but instead we are to follow, and to walk. We could never get far or go right without holding His hand. He leads us, we follow, He saves us, we obey, He rescues us, we are grateful.

 

[JacksBratt]

Here I stand. I can do no other.

I don't even know what you mean by that.

 

[Thess]

You said that God has chosen salvation for "Certain individuals" John 3:16 says "for God so loved the "world"... That's everyone.. not just certain individuals...

Even then.. even though Christ died for all humans... not all accept Him.. A baptized baby may grow up to reject Him. Sad but true.

With Jesus being God, knowing ALL things, do you believe that Jesus was tortured and murdered so that Judas Iscariot, whom He called a Devil, would have a chance to turn his heart towards Christ? Even if it meant that prophesy would be negated and proven false? It's a great question to think about.

 

[Albion]

All great scriptures... But I have never seen one that justifies the belief that I can save anyone.

Who is saying that you CAN save someone else?



And is there someone who has been denying THIS--

A baptized baby may grow up to reject Him. Sad but true.

?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Great call. We need to do a better job of trying to understand each, but then again, that all depends on whether a person has the ACTUAL Holy Spirit within them....and those that do, listen to all people. We don't have to believe everyone, but those with the Spirit WILL listen. I listen and so do you.

I might listen to all people but i rightly divide the word of Truth.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am refering to the parents forcing kids to be baptized as infants, not Jesus.

How do you feel about Jewish parents forcing circumcision upon their children? What about parents forcing medicine onto their children?

Would you describe these things as "forcing" something onto a child?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What if the infant has not been given faith? Or are you saying forced baptism is essentially forced faith?

Baptism grants faith. Because God's word gives faith (Romans 10:17), and God's word does not fail (Isaiah 55:11)

It is not scripturally sound to say someone else can choose you faith in Christ for you to be saved.

Since it isn't about our choices, but God's grace, then the idea of "choice" isn't the issue--certainly not biblically.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Natsumi Lam]

How do you feel about Jewish parents forcing circumcision upon their children? What about parents forcing medicine onto their children?

Would you describe these things as "forcing" something onto a child?

-CryptoLutheran

If circumcision had eternal implication like salvation. Christ saved with heart and mouth. Infants cant with heart and mouth.

If medicine had eternal implications yes.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Baptism grants faith. Because God's word gives faith (Romans 10:17), and God's word does not fail (Isaiah 55:11)


Since it isn't about our choices, but God's grace, then the idea of "choice" isn't the issue--certainly not biblically.

-CryptoLutheran

God grants faith. Not baptism.

You say we dont have a choice on salvation?

Do baptised infants have a choice of salvation under your belief?

 

[JacksBratt]

If we baptize our children, we are not deciding anything, except to initiate them into the Life of our Christian family and Church.

So..... kinda like we did for our three children. Knowing that I can do nothing to save their soul or even guarantee that they will some day accept Christ....my wife and I dedicated our infants to God..

We basically stand in front of our fellow congregation, and before God.. we dedicate the child to God, accepting that this child is a gift from Him and we will do all things in our power to raise it to know the way of God...

Then, permission is given to the congregation to advise us in this task and help us on this road.

It is also, up to the child, under this guidance and teaching.. to some day.. of their own accord.. accept Christ.. or deny Him if that is what they chose.

 

[JacksBratt]

Exactly. Salvation is entirely from God, and in this respect, the adult is just as much in need of a saviour as a child. We are born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Children are in need of a savior... they just have no concept of that.. thus they are covered.. Nothing I do, a priest or minister can do... will change that.... It is up to God and His mercy and grace...

Sprinkling water on it's forehead just makes the parents sleep better..

Someday, down the road, the child will reach a mental maturity at which it can be held accountable for it's sin.. and accept or deny Christ....Baptized or not.....

 

[JacksBratt]

Hmm... did you actually read what I just posted? "I was saved (and am still being saved) by God. "

Oh, so it's a continual effort?

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm saying that we all start out life on the highway to hell. I'm saying that God saves infants through baptism. I'm saying that baptism is necessary but it is not absolutely necessary.

Well... that's kind of confusing... isn't it?

What, may I ask, happens to an infant.. that is not baptized.. but dies in a car crash, choking, SIDS or some other unfortunate incident?

 

[JacksBratt]

To the extent that it does...that would be the case ONLY if the infant dies before reaching an age of accountability -- being able to choose between right and wrong.


No. It is not. It is the grace and forgiveness that God imparts to the one who is baptized which keeps them secure while still young.

Well, then... should we not be baptizing them at the hospital before they venture out of the walls of safety..... Heaven forbid if it were to die in the weeks before this salvation was placed on it......

 

[JacksBratt]

You were told wrongly. To the extent that Baptism forgives sin, you are safe until you are of age. Thats it. If the person were an adult being baptized, that would be a different discussion.

So, again... a child, not baptized and another child.. who is baptized.. in a car.. and it crashes and both die... what now??????

 

[JacksBratt]

Baptism is a work done by God. Baptism saves because Jesus saves.

So, I could go around and save all the humans as they are born... without them consenting to it?

 

[JacksBratt]

We do not know what God does in that case. Most churches feel that God will hold these people in his arms somehow.

Apparently, and judging from the silence on this issue that scripture provides, it was not something God saw fit to reveal to us when he inspired the writers of Holy Scripture.

There is no "silence" on this..

King David mourned for his sick son and prayed for it's healing... in sack cloth and ashes..

When it died.. he cleaned himself up and celebrated... why??? because "his son could not come to him but he will go to son"