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Infant baptism

Hank77

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Which makes a good question of just where the idea of "Personal acceptance" came from since the Bible does not have it.
Quotes from an article in the Catholic Exchange.

Joshua confronts the Israelites with one of the choicest lines of the Old Testament: “Choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, will serve the Lord” (Josh 24:15 RSV).
.......
If we again choose to serve the Lord like Joshua and the Israelites, he will be ready to receive us and to help us stay true to the path we have decided to trod. It was the Master, after all, who told us, ‘the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt 7:14 RSV). I’d like to find it.

https://catholicexchange.com/choose-this-day-whom-you-will-serve


"Personal acceptance" isn't the standard that God set for us in the past, and we have no reason to believe that He has changed His mind.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Infants dont have a ministry, so not sure how that connects...so what is the purpose?

And why wasn't Christ baptized as infant if was proper?

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Jesus was dedicated in the temple when circumcised at 8 days old, not baptized. Seeing as baptism is in answer to a good conscience toward God, and seeing as you can't have a good conscience until you are dead to sin, and seeing as that doesn't happen until you have the Holy Spirit, and seeing as you are not given the Holy Spirit until you repent unto Christ, I think those in the Church who wait are more accurate in light of all scripture (plus just plain spiritual logic).

John the Baptist baptized for repentance which was preparing the way to Jesus, making straight the path. Repentance is key, which a baby can't do, but they can be dedicated to the Lord, which I would agree with. If someone has been infant baptized, as I was (but never knew it until I was in my 30's or 40's), I would get rebaptized for the right reasons, and after you have truly repented in order to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Including infant baptism, I've been baptized 4 times. But only consider the last one as in the right order of things. When I truly repented and received the literal filling of the Holy Spirit to overflowing, afterwards, I knew by the Spirit I needed to now be baptized (by full immersion). Sprinkling was done also in the early church when there wasn't pools of water available. I don't think the amount of water makes a difference, as we aren't literally taking a bath to remove filth. Though I believe full immersion better illustrates burial. After all, my dead body with just a sprinkle of dirt over it would still stink. LOL

As for when the Church started baptizing infants instead of just dedicating them, I haven't a clue.
 
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Tutorman

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Quotes from an article in the Catholic Exchange.

Joshua confronts the Israelites with one of the choicest lines of the Old Testament: “Choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, will serve the Lord” (Josh 24:15 RSV).
.......
If we again choose to serve the Lord like Joshua and the Israelites, he will be ready to receive us and to help us stay true to the path we have decided to trod. It was the Master, after all, who told us, ‘the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt 7:14 RSV). I’d like to find it.

https://catholicexchange.com/choose-this-day-whom-you-will-serve

Not Catholic and the idea of "Personal acceptance" is an invention of modern day evangelicals.
 
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Hank77

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simon the sorcerer as well as ananias and sapphira would refute this idea as they were baptized, but they were made a part of the covenant community based on their profession of faith and their baptism, which is an example of baptism being the anti-type of the circumcision made with hands.
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at here. Because people can make a false profession that somehow negates the faith that baptism is a sign/action taken that someone has been regenerated?
If someone gives false profession and is baptized that is an example of baptism being the anti-type of the circumcision made with hands? Sorry I confused.
that debate wasn't about defining the covenant sign but about whether or not a particular part of the mosaic law should continue to be observed. judaizers and the validity of gentile believers were a big issue for the church at that time.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

The most logical and straight forward argument would have been that baptism replaces circumcision but they never even brought up baptism.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I'm sorry I don't understand what you are getting at here. Because people can make a false profession that somehow negates the faith that baptism is a sign/action taken that someone has been regenerated?
If someone gives false profession and is baptized that is an example of baptism being the anti-type of the circumcision made with hands? Sorry I confused.

correct, as many people in the previous covenant made professions of faith, that turned out to be false based on their fruits, and became part of the covenant community and were circumcised.

the covenant sign never saved anyone. it only marks out those who are the visible congregation of God's people.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

except no one was ever saved through circumcision.....just like no one is saved through baptism. the covenant sign has always been about marking out the visible church.

as romans 9 says, not all Israel were Israel.

the judaizers also believed that you had to adhere to the dietary laws to be saved.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I did a quick Google search. Unless someone can find an earlier reference, the first explicit writing on infant Baptism was by Tertullian in a treatise on Baptism, apparently written between 200 and 206. This proves nothing one way or the other, but I felt it was important to mention.

Yes, I found the same thing.

Here is an article referencing Tertullian by John Piper.

he earliest explicit mention of infant “baptism” in the history of the church is from the African church father, Tertullian, who lived from about A.D. 160 to about 220. He was born in Carthage, studied in Rome for a legal career and was converted to Christianity in about 195. He was the first Christian theologian to write in Latin and exerted significant influence through his apologetic works.

The work, de baptismo (Concerning Baptism) was written, evidently between 200 and 206. In it Tertullian questions the wisdom of giving baptism to infants. He says,

According to everyone’s condition and disposition, and also his age, the delaying of baptism is more profitable, especially in the case of little children. For why is it necessary—if [baptism itself] is not necessary—that the sponsors should be thrust into danger? For they may either fail of their promise by death, or they may be mistaken by a child’s proving of wicked disposition…. They that understand the weight of baptism will rather dread the receiving of it, than the delaying of it. An entire faith is secure of salvation! (de baptismo, ch. xviii)

What we see here is that the first explicit witness to infant baptism does not assume that it is a given. In other words, at the turn of the third century it is not taken for granted, as it is 200 years later when St. Augustine addresses the matter. Tertullian speaks the way one would if the practice were in dispute, possibly as a more recent development.

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16, Paul says, “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.” In Acts 16:15, Luke reports concerning the new convert, Lydia, “When she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.’” And in Acts 16:33, Luke tells us that after the earthquake in the jail of Philippi, the jailer “took [Paul and Silas] that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his [household].”

It is significant that in regard to the family of the Philippian jailer Luke reports in Acts 16:32, just before mentioning the baptism of the jailer’s household, “[Paul and Silas] spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.” This seems to be Luke’s way of saying that hearing and believing the word is a prerequisite to baptism. The whole household heard the word and the whole household was baptized. In any case, there is no mention of infants in any of these three instances of household baptisms, and it is an argument from silence to say that there must have been small children. It would be like saying here at Bethlehem that a reference to Ross Anderson’s household or Don Brown’s or Dennis Smith’s or David Michael’s or David Livingston’s or dozens of others must include infants, which they don’t.

Yet from these texts, Joachim Jeremias, who wrote one of the most influential books in defense of infant baptism, concluded, “It is characteristic that Luke could report the matter thus. For by so doing he gives expression to the fact that ‘the solidarity of the family in baptism and not the individual decision of the single member’ was the decisive consideration” (Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries, 1960, p. 23, quoting Oscar Cullman, Baptism in the New Testament, 1950, p. 45). I would rather say that the entire drift of the New Testament, and many particular sayings, is in the opposite direction: it is precisely the individual in his relation to Christ that is decisive in the New Testament, rather than solidarity in the flesh. “It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants” (Romans 9:8).

Pastor John
 
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Hank77

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Not Catholic and the idea of "Personal acceptance" is an invention of modern day evangelicals.
Maybe I don't understand what you mean by personal acceptance.

I gave a scripture of Joshua's personal decision and Abram/Abraham did the same. There's many in the NT.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Just curious for those that believe in infant baptism, sprinkling, etc where did this idea come from since Jesus himself was not baptized until he was around 29-30?
Ezekiel 36:24-25 New International Version (NIV)

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

The Messiah Himself prophetically attested to sprinkling baptism.

Infant baptism is as per 1 corinthians 7: 14 to testify that infants are holy.
 
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Hank77

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correct, as many people in the previous covenant made professions of faith, that turned out to be false based on their fruits, and became part of the covenant community and were circumcised.

the covenant sign never saved anyone. it only marks out those who are the visible congregation of God's people.



except no one was ever saved through circumcision.....just like no one is saved through baptism. the covenant sign has always been about marking out the visible church.

as romans 9 says, not all Israel were Israel.

the judaizers also believed that you had to adhere to the dietary laws to be saved.
Oh Ok, I see what you are saying and I agree.
But baptism is more than just a sign that one is a member in the body of Christ.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

An infant or a child that is not conscience of sin, cannot be baptized through faith.

But I'm going to duck out of here now. I can't think of anything else that I have to offer.
It was nice conversing with you. May God Bless you and yours.
 
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Yarddog

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1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Jesus was dedicated in the temple when circumcised at 8 days old, not baptized.
Yes, but isn't our baptism a circumcision in Christ Jesus?

Col. 2:
8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with him in baptism


Circumcision was sign of God's Covenant.
Genesis 17:
10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised
, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.
13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Baptism is a sign of the New Covenant as Paul points out. Scripture points out three times of households being baptized and this is the practice of the Church since the Apostles passed it to them.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Oh Ok, I see what you are saying and I agree.
But baptism is more than just a sign that one is a member in the body of Christ.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

An infant or a child that is not conscience of sin, cannot be baptized through faith.

But I'm going to duck out of here now. I can't think of anything else that I have to offer.
It was nice conversing with you. May God Bless you and yours.
Infants believe in Jesus as per Mathew 18: 6. That is sufficient for infant baptism.
 
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GingerBeer

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Just curious for those that believe in infant baptism, sprinkling, etc where did this idea come from since Jesus himself was not baptized until he was around 29-30?
Jesus was circumcised in infancy. Jesus was baptised to fulfil all righteousness. Those who are in the body of Christ were baptised with Christ. One enters the body of Christ through Christian baptism at whatever age it is administered by whatever quantity of water. Baptism is usually by dipping or by pouring but rarely by sprinkling.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Yes, but isn't our baptism a circumcision in Christ Jesus?

Col. 2:
8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with him in baptism


Circumcision was sign of God's Covenant.
Genesis 17:
10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised
, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.
13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Baptism is a sign of the New Covenant as Paul points out. Scripture points out three times of households being baptized and this is the practice of the Church since the Apostles passed it to them.

Good point. I'll have to remember that verse. Not being male, I seldom think of circumcision. LOL

I like what Romans 6 has to say.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The sign of circumcision what the sign of the covenant with Abraham. Gn 17:11

The sign of the Sabbath was the sign of the covenant of the Ten Commandments. Exodus 31:13 and Exodus 34:28

The sign of the Cup (representing blood) is the sign of the New Covenant. 1 Cor. 11:25
 
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Alithis

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I used to wonder about the validity of infant baptism. But in Acts, when someone got saved (Lydia, a jailer, etc.), they were baptized with all their household. Some will go to great lengths to insist there were no children in any of these households, but I don't buy that.
So do you think it is wise to buikd doctrine based on a human assumption of any kind?
Do you think it wise to tell people who never of thier own will believed inJesus and repented that they are ok and will go to heaven because they were baptized as a baby. ?
I know they wont.
But i also know it would be very unwise to teach people such a thing.
 
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Alithis

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Jesus was circumcised in infancy. Jesus was baptised to fulfil all righteousness. Those who are in the body of Christ were baptised with Christ. One enters the body of Christ through Christian baptism at whatever age it is administered by whatever quantity of water. Baptism is usually by dipping or by pouring but rarely by sprinkling.
Why exclude so much of the Gospel message?
Without repentance ..no baptism of any kind is effectual .
 
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1stcenturylady

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So do you think it is wise to buikd doctrine based on a human assumption of any kind?
Do you think it wise to tell people who never of thier own will believed inJesus and repented that they are ok and will go to heaven because they were baptized as a baby. ?
I know they wont.
But i also know it would be very unwise to teach people such a thing.

We have a lot of assumptions from the Bible, that aren't exactly spelled out don't we? One about children is all children who die are saved because of their innocence and not having arrived at the age of accountability? Where is that stated? It isn't. In fact, 1 Corinthians 7:14 says, "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy." Are children who are deemed unclean, saved? What about the heathen nations God commanded the Israelites to wipe out, including children? Aren't they "unclean"? Its a sore subject.

That is one reason the Church adopted infant baptism, because it, in itself, is believed to save a person based on 1 Peter 3:21 "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism." Also, infant fatality was common. Personally, I believe dunking someone who hasn't repented of their sins is just getting wet.
 
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1stcenturylady

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---Staff Edit---

I think that parents that have their babies baptized, plan on RAISING that child in the faith. More like dedication. So knowledge will be given that child. Unfortunately, in many cases, they never leave that denomination and never learn what true baptism is all about.
 
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1stcenturylady

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But in reality most parents do it because theyve been told to by the abductors....
Its a harsh parable.but its to reveal a dangerous reality.

Funny thing is, I was baptized as a baby, but was never told! My mom was cleaning out some things and thought I might like my baby book. The certificate was in it. By the time I found it, I had already been immersed three more times!
 
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Alithis

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Funny thing is, I was baptized as a baby, but was never told! My mom was cleaning out some things and thought I might like my baby book. The certificate was in it. By the time I found it, I had already been immersed three more times!
Dare i ask ....why three ?
 
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