That is YOUR experience, though. It doesn't mean that everyone has to have the same experience.
I agree, but just as those in the first century could use their believer baptism as part of their witness to others I can also. When I teach others I do not tell them or even ask them if they want to be believer immersed baptized nor do I suggest they are hell bound (since I do not believe they are at that point [since God makes the decision]), but just read scripture on the subject and give mine and other’s experience. The bottom line has been their response of: “I want to be baptized”.
Do you believe the nonbeliever going through the stags of hearing, believing, repenting, and confessing is hell bound until he/she is baptized?
Would infant baptism have any significant, if the infant was not hell bound?
I believe in the concept of original sin, on the basis of Psalm 51:5 David is not just speaking of himself in this psalm.
Original sin refuted
This is no small subject and there appear to be verses on both sides of the issue.
The Bible does not say after Adam and Eve sinned: “Man’s nature changed”, or “The sin of Adam and Eve was pasted on”. It does say the knowledge of good and evil came into the world and does not use the word “fall” to describe this.
Is knowledge bad in and of itself?
To refute the idea: “Children and anyone else that has not reached mature adulthood have not sinned yet and do not need saving, since they have done nothing wrong. They are in a safe condition.” Use:
Rom 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God". We are born sinners, thanks to Adam.
Yet: The key to this verse is accountability.
“All have sinned”, so is Paul addressing an unborn child with that statement? Paul did not say we “all” inherited Adam and Eve’s sin, but all have (actually) sinned. It also does not say we inherited even a “sinful nature”, but talks about knowledge, so is knowledge=nature? “All” does not have to include everyone including unborn children, but could be referring to all of us (whom Paul is addressing at that time those that can understand his letter).
A. The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin is false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
1. Exodus 32:3133 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else's sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.
We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, "Your sins have separated you from your God" not Adams
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)
Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?
B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:
Calvinists teach that if a sinner helps an accident victim, he still sins because he does it for the wrong motive.
Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16
Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14
Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 "Choose this day..."
C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved...infants can't act or do
"Unless you repent you will perish": Lk 13:3
"Save yourselves": Acts 2:40 KJV
"Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins": Acts 2:38
Why are we told to "work out our own salvation": Phil 2:12
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18
D. The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:
These words imply that we, individually, were once in God's grace at conception and birth
Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God
Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God
Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one's freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin
"Regenerate"
to generate again, renewed, restored
E. The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:
Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14
Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20
Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39
Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
"Once alive"
"sin killed me"
King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
"Blameless from creation"
"until sin found in him"
All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices
Like Adam, each man is born in the "Garden" and is cast out when he sins
F. The second Spiritual death implies a first spiritual death & initial spiritual life:
Second death is hell: It is a spiritual separation from God: Rev 20:6,14
First death is when we first sin and are separated from God till judgement
For us to die a first death we must have been spiritually alive at birth.
Those that argue for a baby being in sin will miss-use this:
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
A Perspective on Psalm 51:5
But I would use this explanation:
by William P. Murray, Jr.
Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:
2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”
Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:
1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”
1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”
David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.
2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle. 29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”
...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as 'true' a son as his half-brothers. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected 'all' his sons, to the sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring 'his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....
1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”
....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the 'least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)
David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because 'no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation’ (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered 'defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17
This page may be copied and distributed freely as long as it is not altered.
If you believe that adults are the only people can sin, how do you draw the line? At what age is someone suddenly sinful?
When they can be held accountable for their sins, which is not a "fixed" time for us to know.
God's mission to us was laid out in the Great Commission: Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Note that he didn't say "but only the adults"...
Can a baby be made a disciple?
