Infant Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

I think it's important to not only look at the "when" baptism is done or the "how" baptism is done, but the "why" baptism is done. Those arguments have been going around in circles for hundreds of years to pretty much no avail.

You need to read the Bible, ask God to guide you and make that decision for yourself. If Baptism is the act that 'seals the deal' so to speak or if it in fact actually 'saves' you, why would you need Christ and his sacrifice?

It's not like you can be baptized as a baby and live a horrible, retched life for 75 years as an atheist (or whatever) and then have a 'get into heaven free' card because your parents had you baptized as a baby. Baptism isn't fire insurance.

Ask God to guide you on this. Don't give in to pressure from ANY church. Your salvation is between you and God.

The how is with water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The why is because God chose to use water and the word to accomplish his purpose in calling his faithful to new life in union with Jesus Christ.

The when is whenever one is able to receive God's grace at the hand his church.


The passages for these things are as follows

• How John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
  Matthew 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
• Why Titus 3:4-7 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, (5) he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (6) which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (7) so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
  Romans 6:3-5 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (5) For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
• When Acts 2:38-41 Peter (said) to them, Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call. (40) He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. (41) Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

 

[shturt678]

I think it's important to not only look at the "when" baptism is done or the "how" baptism is done, but the "why" baptism is done. Those arguments have been going around in circles for hundreds of years to pretty much no avail.

You need to read the Bible, ask God to guide you and make that decision for yourself. If Baptism is the act that 'seals the deal' so to speak or if it in fact actually 'saves' you, why would you need Christ and his sacrifice?

It's not like you can be baptized as a baby and live a horrible, retched life for 75 years as an atheist (or whatever) and then have a 'get into heaven free' card because your parents had you baptized as a baby. Baptism isn't fire insurance.

Ask God to guide you on this. Don't give in to pressure from ANY church. Your salvation is between you and God.

If those little precious infants are not guilty and in no need of the Holy Spirit, your premise rings true. Just me again. ol' old Jack, Morecoffee's friend.

 

[shturt678]

The how is with water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The why is because God chose to use water and the word to accomplish his purpose in calling his faithful to new life in union with Jesus Christ.

The when is whenever one is able to receive God's grace at the hand his church.


The passages for these things are as follows

• How John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
  Matthew 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
• Why Titus 3:4-7 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, (5) he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (6) which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (7) so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
  Romans 6:3-5 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (5) For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
• When Acts 2:38-41 Peter (said) to them, Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call. (40) He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. (41) Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

 

[Defensor Christi]

" Do I need to be re-baptized?"

There is no such thing. Either you were baptized the the name of the Trinity or you were not Baptized at all.

Agreed....for if you go through the process again, you are only getting wet...

This leads me to a thought. If Baptists view baptism as merely symbolic (with no effect on sin) then why does it matter if the OP has to have it done again? If there is no effect....why do it at all?

 

[Albion]

Agreed....for if you go through the process again, you are only getting wet...

This leads me to a thought. If Baptists view baptism as merely symbolic (with no effect on sin) then why does it matter if the OP has to have it done again? If there is no effect....why do it at all?

I believe that it's considered an obligation and an act that witnesses to one's conversion.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hi. My question is just a simple one but with a long backstory.. I was baptized as an infant. I've always held this baptism as a true one based on this: I believe if you are baptized and later on decide to not follow God, your baptism is no longer valid. That being said, I believe in the opposite, if you decide to come to God after being baptized, your baptism is in fact, valid. I've also thought that the babies were dedicated in the Israelites' covenant after 8 days, and entire households were baptized in the New Testament. That being said, the church I belong to now believes my baptism is not valid by noting that in the New Testament, it is 'believe, then be baptized'. This obviously disturbs me because, does my baptism count? Do I need to be re-baptized? I don't know, and I've been following God for a while now and am scared that I've been following all this time but missing a step. I've always thought my baptism was valid until my pastor said it was not. Can somebody shine some light on this?

I go to a church that doesn't have a specific denomnation but clearly leans baptist. I'm posting it here as I do think it's a theology question, although it does fall under 'Christian Advice' as well.

If you were baptized in the Trinitarian formula, you're validly baptized. No need to get rebaptized, though I supposed you could get dunked if the spirit moves you to do so...

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think it's important to not only look at the "when" baptism is done or the "how" baptism is done, but the "why" baptism is done. Those arguments have been going around in circles for hundreds of years to pretty much no avail.

You need to read the Bible, ask God to guide you and make that decision for yourself. If Baptism is the act that 'seals the deal' so to speak or if it in fact actually 'saves' you, why would you need Christ and his sacrifice?

It's not like you can be baptized as a baby and live a horrible, retched life for 75 years as an atheist (or whatever) and then have a 'get into heaven free' card because your parents had you baptized as a baby. Baptism isn't fire insurance.

Ask God to guide you on this. Don't give in to pressure from ANY church. Your salvation is between you and God.

Baptism is the gateway to Christianity. It's the beginning. It's sufficient, but if you don't live your baptismal promises, regardless of when those were made, then you have to do something more. Remember the passage where someone lived a sinful life, then repented and was saved? The thief on the Cross comes to mind...but the one who leads a saintly life, then falls at the end...he' going to be judged harshly because he knew better, and fell anyway.

 

[holyrokker]

When was Jesus baptized? A child can not repent.
How was Jesus baptized? He came up out of the water, not sprinkled.
There is no example better than that that Jesus gave. Take your example from Him!

Where was Jesus baptized? In the Jordan River.
Who baptized Jesus? John the Baptist
How can we follow His example?

 

[bling]

In an effort to emphasis God’s unconditional (salvation), water baptism of believers has been avoided as a subject. People have “argued” that water baptism is a work and since “works” are not required for salvation, water baptism must be avoided. Most “Christian” religious groups “allow” immersion of believers if they want it.

The problem with this reasoning is adult believer immersion is not something you “do” (work), but is something you allow to be done to you. It is not something “done” as some requirement, but is something you get to do for your sake (to help you) and the sake of others.

Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha mike make) but is always addressing the audience he is talking to. We have to get into the context.

What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?

What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)

The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?

Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin.

Jesus is not going to blare the answer out to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.



Christian water baptism as seen in scripture: Is always adult (there are only two examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the dead), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of your new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?

Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?

The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized.

 

[wordsoflife]

Where was Jesus baptized? In the Jordan River.
Who baptized Jesus? John the Baptist
How can we follow His example?

Ummm...by having John the Baptist baptize us in the Jordan River?

 

[Rev Randy]

The how is with water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The why is because God chose to use water and the word to accomplish his purpose in calling his faithful to new life in union with Jesus Christ.

The when is whenever one is able to receive God's grace at the hand his church.


The passages for these things are as follows

• How John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
  Matthew 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
• Why Titus 3:4-7 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, (5) he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (6) which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (7) so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
  Romans 6:3-5 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (5) For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
• When Acts 2:38-41 Peter (said) to them, Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call. (40) He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. (41) Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

Now how could anyone argue with that? I am sure I'll soon find out.

 

[Rev Randy]

Ummm...by having John the Baptist baptize us in the Jordan River?

I was going to suggest just getting a baptist to do it but you beat me to it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where was Jesus baptized? In the Jordan River.
Who baptized Jesus? John the Baptist
How can we follow His example?

Peter converted 3000 people in Jerusalem, and they were all baptized. Jerusalem does not have an abundant water supply, and baptizing 3000 people, plus their families, would render the water supply undrinkable for a very long time. Do we really think they were all immersed?

If someone in a desert converts and wants to be baptized, and all that's available is a cup of water, does he have to wait until he can be immersed?

 

[Elder 111]

It's more than a little ironic when Christ proclaims that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless we receive it like a child, and some proclaim that children are not capable of receiving the kingdom at all.

Babies are unable to make intelligent decisions, except to cry. How can they then made a decision to serve God? Jesus made a mistake in waiting as long as He did? Why was He not baptized as a child? How come we always know better than God?

 

[Elder 111]

Down into the water does not mean 'dunked' instead of pouring. All the ancient artwork shows Christ standing in the water with John the Baptist pouring water over his head.

Read Acts Chapter 8 where Philip baptizes the eunuch and they both go 'down into the water'. If going 'down into the water' means getting 'dunked', then the person who is doing the baptizing needs to also be submersed to in order to be Scriptural.

Why would you expect to down into and come up out of to mean pouring. Please Please tell me why?
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Pouring can not represent such but Being put into the water until one is covered by the water and coming up again does.

 

[Elder 111]

No. He paid the debt we owed. He kept going in the same direction.He did not turn around because of a change of heart.

When did i say that? Jesus paid or debt at the cross not in baptism.

 

[Albion]

Babies are unable to make intelligent decisions, except to cry. How can they then made a decision to serve God?

God has made a decision to help them. How can men then justify the decision to prevent that?

 

[Albion]

Why would you expect to down into and come up out of to mean pouring. Please Please tell me why?

Pick any river you know. Does it have banks or is the water level the same as the surrounding grounds? Banks, right? To go into the river you go down into the water and when you leave it, as Jesus is recorded in Scripture as doing, you have to walk UP the banks. In fact, we always go down when we walk into deeper and deeper water.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Pouring can not represent such but Being put into the water until one is covered by the water and coming up again does.

Do we "bury" anyone in water? No. It's an analogy, not the same thing, Elder.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The how is with water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The why is because God chose to use water and the word to accomplish his purpose in calling his faithful to new life in union with Jesus Christ.

The when is whenever one is able to receive God's grace at the hand his church.


The passages for these things are as follows

• How John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
  Matthew 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
• Why Titus 3:4-7 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, (5) he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (6) which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (7) so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
  Romans 6:3-5 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (5) For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
• When Acts 2:38-41 Peter (said) to them, Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call. (40) He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. (41) Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

Now how could anyone argue with that? I am sure I'll soon find out.

You're such a nice chap!

So far nobody has contradicted it.

I wonder why?

It is a very Catholic view of baptism.

Oh wait! It is also a very scriptural view too.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pick any river you know. Does it have banks or is the water level the same as the surrounding grounds? Banks, right? To go into the river you go down into the water and when you leave it, as Jesus is recorded in Scripture as doing, you have to walk UP the banks. In fact, we always go down when we walk into deeper and deeper water.



Do we "bury" anyone in water? No. It's an analogy, not the same thing, Elder.

Some folk are "buried" at sea