It's more than a little ironic when Christ proclaims that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless we receive it like a child, and some proclaim that children are not capable of receiving the kingdom at all.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Infant Baptism
- Thread starter justlovinJesus
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It's more than a little ironic when Christ proclaims that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless we receive it like a child, and some proclaim that children are not capable of receiving the kingdom at all.
Down into the water does not mean 'dunked' instead of pouring. All the ancient artwork shows Christ standing in the water with John the Baptist pouring water over his head.
Read Acts Chapter 8 where Philip baptizes the eunuch and they both go 'down into the water'. If going 'down into the water' means getting 'dunked', then the person who is doing the baptizing needs to also be submersed to in order to be Scriptural.
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Also relative to the discussion is that people take the verses about being 'buried' with Christ and apply a modern day view of burial. Let's do remember that Christ was not buried (submersed) under ground, which is the image people associate with dunking. He did walk out of the tomb, much like he walked out of the river. But the correlation to his burial certainly doesn't imply being 'dunked' in baptism.
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So a summary for the OP:
You will probably be told that the only valid baptism is by submersion because the Greek word "baptizo" means to submerse. It actually means to 'immerse', which is not the same thing. I can immerse myself in a tub of water; that doesn't mean I have to dunk my head under. It can also mean simply a ritual washing, like in Luke 11:38 -- "38: The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner." The same Greek word "baptizo" is used there to simply mean the ritual washing -- no immersion or submersion involved. So based on Scripture, the idea that baptism requires submersion is false.
You will be told that in order to be buried with Christ you have to be submersed. As I just pointed out, this is an example of taking Scripture and applying a modern viewpoint -- one where people are buried under ground. That was not the case with Christ so not the image that's being referred to.
You will be told because people went "down into the water" that means they had to be submersed. Read Acts 8 -- both Philip (the baptizer) and the eunuch (to be baptized) went "down into the water". Were they both dunked? Of course not.
Look at the artwork in this wiki article from the 3rd century catacombs -- what it meant to 'go down into the water' -- it meant get into the water, and have water poured over your head. The Scriptural images of God pouring his Spirit into us align with this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism
Lastly, you'll be told that because you couldn't "reason" it out with your intellect, you could not have received the kingdom of God as a child, even though Jesus says that none of us can receive the kingdom of God unless we receive it as a child. Coming into the body of Christ is not about an act of the intellect. Faith is a gift from God, not an act of our own intellect, and it's not prohibited to children. Far from it.
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Good work, narnia. We need to keep that in mind whenever this topic comes up.
Thanks. I remember the day very clearly when that dawned on me.
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
I thought I was the only one on the planet that seen Acts 8 as you do, ie, maybe there are even others out there. Excellent work. I wouldn't want to be charged with keeping these little guilty infants out of the Kingdom of God. Just a small comment. If one is baptized, including infants, just in the Personal name of the Triune God, and not also in the sphere of the revelation that the Triune God's name is based upon, then there is 'no such thing of a re-baptism' rings true. Secondly, it's not so much a 'rebaptism issue,' but a 'renewal of faith issue' at one's 'instant of faith' hence a renewal of faith requires a rebaptism as both in the same Gospel sphere of faith. All the former has to be rejected by modern Lutherans, and the RC camp of course, and this is one of the main reasons I'm a non-modern Lutheran. No worry, just my opinion.
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
I didn't know they had an artist on hand.I'd say just adhere to the method your Church uses. We dunk thrice. The Roman Catholic folk pour and the Methodist sprinkle. Non can prevent the Lord from doing His work.
The ol' old ostraca my friend. They didn't picture an aquatic life, but pourings, eg, Acts 8 my friend.
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Rev Randy
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
One also needs to remember who those paintings of old were painted for. But I'm not concerned with differing Methods, When needed we pour as well (those confined to bed or anything that would prevent our normal practice).
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If you re-baptize again, then you violated the Westminster creeds. Does the creeds matter to some? It should matter to all Bible followers cause the creed also provided quotes to support what was said. They're right, you're already baptized and it's already done.
The real problem lies in what other men tell you based on their interpretations and you'll be doing it to satisfy them while at the same time dissatisfy God.
You can dunk in a tub for fun just to make your friends happy but you'll spend the rest of your life knowing you violated God's Word.
He said: You're baptized once.
Once ain't twice.
Done is done. Done don't mean it ain't done.
NOTE: All Particular Baptist follow the Westminster Creeds.
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
Being an artist then is like being a Minister today, 'good money.' See, you also use affusion, at times, hence we can not only agree to disagree, but agree to agree at times. Thank you Randy, BTW I also am a 'not paid' minister, ie, although part of a 501(C)3 hence a part of the 'economics.' Just a confession of sins. 
Hey, now I need to send you money, just mail me your address. 
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Rev Randy
Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Good money? I must be in the wrong Church for that.
The part of Africa I served in did not have anything like 501C. We didn't even have a 5c.
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MoreCoffee
Repentance works.
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Do you think it is some secret name?
Something revealed only to the elite?
The folk in the know?
Or is it just what it says in the verses?
"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
One name for one God in three distinct persons?
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
Something revealed only to those little children that can wade across a stream, and elephants drown. Almost in the same sense as the Kingdom of God has to be acquired, where it's still veiled to you, eg, Matt.13:11, in there somewhere? Don't get depressed, I'm here to turn all this around, just give me the word, (God's timing) and don't take so long coffee breaks, ie, time is short. Your friend and ol' old buddy Jack.
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I think it's important to not only look at the "when" baptism is done or the "how" baptism is done, but the "why" baptism is done. Those arguments have been going around in circles for hundreds of years to pretty much no avail.
You need to read the Bible, ask God to guide you and make that decision for yourself. If Baptism is the act that 'seals the deal' so to speak or if it in fact actually 'saves' you, why would you need Christ and his sacrifice?
It's not like you can be baptized as a baby and live a horrible, retched life for 75 years as an atheist (or whatever) and then have a 'get into heaven free' card because your parents had you baptized as a baby. Baptism isn't fire insurance.
Ask God to guide you on this. Don't give in to pressure from ANY church. Your salvation is between you and God.
You need to read the Bible, ask God to guide you and make that decision for yourself. If Baptism is the act that 'seals the deal' so to speak or if it in fact actually 'saves' you, why would you need Christ and his sacrifice?
It's not like you can be baptized as a baby and live a horrible, retched life for 75 years as an atheist (or whatever) and then have a 'get into heaven free' card because your parents had you baptized as a baby. Baptism isn't fire insurance.
Ask God to guide you on this. Don't give in to pressure from ANY church. Your salvation is between you and God.
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