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Infant Baptism

seawolf_48

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I have many dear Brother and Sister Friends that aren't PadeoBaptist, and claim that you don't need to be to be Reformed. The same with the sabbath. I really enjoy A.W. Pink and John Piper and their Cavlinistic preaching and teaching, and even some of their covenant theology. But if you don't understand that our children are part of the covenant, then you might be missing a big part of what Covenant Theology is all about.

For example:

If you lived in 27 AD and had a three year old boy whom you circumsized on the eighth day, and right after Christ was crucified your second son was born. You are a believer in Christ and want your second son to be part of the covenant people like your first son. But now you must wait until he personnally excepts Christ before he is a part of God's covnenant people.

Some Facts:
1) Baby dedication is not in the Bible like the Baptist use.
2) 90% of the Church in America is made up of Children of Believers. Where the gosple is spreading it is different, but still 90% are under 20 years old.
It would seem that a very small amount of children would become covenant breakers.
3) Many verses where the whole family was baptised in acts and the epistles. Most families have children.
4) Col. 2:11-14 link circumcision and baptism in some sort of union. I've made up my mind about what they teach, so must you.
5) Covenant Theology must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, every Spiritual truth is only known thru the enlightenment of the Spirit. If you don't see it, pray that Christ would reveal the Full Covenant Blessing to you.
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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seawolf_48 said:
I have many dear Brother and Sister Friends that aren't PadeoBaptist, and claim that you don't need to be to be Reformed. The same with the sabbath. I really enjoy A.W. Pink and John Piper and their Cavlinistic preaching and teaching, and even some of their covenant theology. But if you don't understand that our children are part of the covenant, then you might be missing a big part of what Covenant Theology is all about.

For example:

If you lived in 27 AD and had a three year old boy whom you circumsized on the eighth day, and right after Christ was crucified your second son was born. You are a believer in Christ and want your second son to be part of the covenant people like your first son. But now you must wait until he personnally excepts Christ before he is a part of God's covnenant people.

Some Facts:
1) Baby dedication is not in the Bible like the Baptist use.
2) 90% of the Church in America is made up of Children of Believers. Where the gosple is spreading it is different, but still 90% are under 20 years old.
It would seem that a very small amount of children would become covenant breakers.
3) Many verses where the whole family was baptised in acts and the epistles. Most families have children.
4) Col. 2:11-14 link circumcision and baptism in some sort of union. I've made up my mind about what they teach, so must you.
5) Covenant Theology must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, every Spiritual truth is only known thru the enlightenment of the Spirit. If you don't see it, pray that Christ would reveal the Full Covenant Blessing to you.
I see it the same way. If you do not believe in Cov. Theology....that is fine. But if you do...it seems to be lacking somewhat if you do not include the children of believers. Why would they be originally included in the days of Abraham, only to be 'severed off' in the days of Christ and afterwards?
 
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Bulldog

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seawolf_48 said:
I have many dear Brother and Sister Friends that aren't PadeoBaptist, and claim that you don't need to be to be Reformed. The same with the sabbath. I really enjoy A.W. Pink and John Piper and their Cavlinistic preaching and teaching, and even some of their covenant theology. But if you don't understand that our children are part of the covenant, then you might be missing a big part of what Covenant Theology is all about.

For example:

If you lived in 27 AD and had a three year old boy whom you circumsized on the eighth day, and right after Christ was crucified your second son was born. You are a believer in Christ and want your second son to be part of the covenant people like your first son. But now you must wait until he personnally excepts Christ before he is a part of God's covnenant people.

Some Facts:
1) Baby dedication is not in the Bible like the Baptist use.
2) 90% of the Church in America is made up of Children of Believers. Where the gosple is spreading it is different, but still 90% are under 20 years old.
It would seem that a very small amount of children would become covenant breakers.
3) Many verses where the whole family was baptised in acts and the epistles. Most families have children.
4) Col. 2:11-14 link circumcision and baptism in some sort of union. I've made up my mind about what they teach, so must you.
5) Covenant Theology must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, every Spiritual truth is only known thru the enlightenment of the Spirit. If you don't see it, pray that Christ would reveal the Full Covenant Blessing to you.

Good points.

I was dedicated as a baby, but I do not understand why it is done.

It is said that you don't baptise infants because they cen't understand, then why dedicate them if they cannot understand.
 
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Gabriel

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Infant Baptism is equal to circumcision. It is a recognition of the covanent between God and man. Also, it is the parent's and the congregation's outward recognition of our responsibility to raise our children up in tha adminition of the Lord.
 
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theseed

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I was dedicated as a baby, but I do not understand why it is done.

It is said that you don't baptise infants because they cen't understand, then why dedicate them if they cannot understand

Because baptism and dedication are not the same thing. Baptism is a sign that you belong to Christ, circumcision was also a sign that you had a circumcised heart. Circumcision was the way to enter the Old Covenant, while the New Covenant is wrought by regeneration which only God does
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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theseed said:
Because baptism and dedication are not the same thing. Baptism is a sign that you belong to Christ, circumcision was also a sign that you had a circumcised heart.
Dedication is just that - dedication. However, baptism, be it infant or adult, is much - much more. It is a sign and seal of the New Covenant we have in Christ Jesus. An outward sign of an inward grace - if that makes any sense. It does not save, but it does so much more than 'symbolize'.

Circumcision was the way to enter the Old Covenant, while the New Covenant is wrought by regeneration which only God does


So nobody was regenerated in the OT. Am I reading your statement correctly?

Also, if infants and children could enter the covenant prior to the New Covenant - why could they not now? Are you implying that no one had faith in the OC? Abraham did. And because of this, he received the sign of the OC - circumcision - and because he believed - his sons were also circumsized. Would it not be the same today? Why would God all of the sudden 'cut off' (no pun intended) the children from him in the NT when he welcomed them in the OT? Does not make sense to me. I do not find scripture anywhere that staes God made a stipulation in his covenant.
 
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theseed

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seawolf said:
But if you don't understand that our children are part of the covenant, then you might be missing a big part of what Covenant Theology is all about.

You can still understand Covenant Theology and be credobaptist. Are all children part ofo the covenant or only some? Do all believers children believe? Are all those who are called Israel actually Israel? No. Because of God's Election (Rom. 9.6-8).

Baptism marks that one is in the New Covenant, but they must be regenerated before they enter that covenant. So, for an infant to be baptised, may be done errringly since we don't know that they are regenerate.

1) Baby dedication is not in the Bible like the Baptist use.

This is true, dedication does not make one part of the New Covenant, nor does it mean that one is regenerate. It only means that one will commit to raising thier children under the Lordship of Christ. Can you show hermeneuticallly that baby dedication is not biblical, as some do with baby baptism?

2) 90% of the Church in America is made up of Children of Believers.

There is a difference between infants and children

3) Many verses where the whole family was baptised in acts and the epistles. Most families have children.

Such as Cornelius household? They all were believers. And Peter said they could be be baptized unless they had recieved the Spirit (Acts 10.47). A link I posted below discusses the house of Lydia, the Philippian jailer, Stephanas, and Crispus.

Also, the "household" argument is inconclusive at best, as many paedobaptist agree.


4) Col. 2:11-14 link circumcision and baptism in some sort of union. I've made up my mind about what they teach, so must you.

Yes, the Circumcision of Christ, not the circumcision of Abraham. Also, the mark of the circumision of Christ is being "made alive" or born again (2.14). So baptism is linked with regeration here, and regeneration is linked with the New Covenant (Jere. 31.33).


5) Covenant Theology must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, every Spiritual truth is only known thru the enlightenment of the Spirit. If you don't see it, pray that Christ would reveal the Full Covenant Blessing to you.

I do see it. And a credobaptist Covenant theologist explains his hermeneutics here in this online booklet (47 pages).

http://www.founders.org/library/malone1/malone_text.html


 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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Are all children part ofo the covenant or only some? Do all believers children believe? Are all those who are called Israel actually Israel? No. Because of God's Election (Rom. 9.6-8).

Were all of the circumsized children of Isreal believers??? Did Abrham know which of his sons would believe and which ones would not? No, but he circumsized them regardless, because of the covenant made with God.

Also, the "household" argument is inconclusive at best, as many paedobaptist agree.
I agree, however, it is just as silly to ASSUME there WERE NOT any children or infants in the house...is it not?
 
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theseed

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happyinhisgrace said:
It is a sign and seal of the New Covenant we have in Christ Jesus. An outward sign of an inward grace - if that makes any sense. It does not save, but it does so much more than 'symbolize'.

Yes, and we should be in that Covenant before we get baptized. And because of God's election to grace, not all are. One must be regenerate to take part in the Covenant (Jere. 31.33, Col. 2.13)

So nobody was regenerated in the OT. Am I reading your statement correctly?

So nobody was regenerated in the OT. Am I reading your statement correctly?[/QUOTE]

The Abrahamic Covenant was entered by circumision, the New Covenant is entered by faith in Christ. Faith is the evidence of regeneration</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>
 
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BBAS 64

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Gabriel said:
Infant Baptism is equal to circumcision. It is a recognition of the covanent between God and man. Also, it is the parent's and the congregation's outward recognition of our responsibility to raise our children up in tha adminition of the Lord.
Good Day, Gabe


I do not see how Infant Baptism is the same as circumcision, circumcision was by the faith of Abram.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Certainly Abram son Ismeal {sp} did not share the faith of his Father, nor did many Jews share the Faith of Abram. If the convenat is not reconized is it therefore less a covenat. The new covent is the covenat of blood based on the Gospel of Christ.

So, if one does not reconize that responsability which I agree we have as his children. Then we skip that responsibilty? How does circumsion relate that responsibilty to the OT people.

Peace to u,

BBAS
 
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theseed

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Hopetheydance said:
Were all of the circumsized children of Isreal believers??? Did Abrham know which of his sons would believe and which ones would not? No, but he circumsized them regardless, because of the covenant made with God.

Was belief required to be in the Covenant? No, but it is in the New Covenant.

I agree, however, it is just as silly to ASSUME there WERE NOT any children or infants in the house...is it not?

Malone said:
Cornelius' Household (Acts 10:22; 11:12,14)

The account of Peter's preaching the gospel to Cornelius' household does not support infant baptism. Peter did preach the gospel to the whole household, and "all" the household was saved. How do we know that? Acts 10:44 and 11:15 state as much. The Holy Spirit fell upon them "all" and led them to repentance and faith (11:17,18). In fact, Peter explicitly stated in 10:47 that he baptized only those who "received the Holy Spirit as we did." This extension of Pentecost to the Gentiles clearly defined who was baptized. There is no mention of infants in the household, but only those who were "listening to the message" (10:44). Infants are capable of being regenerated by God (e.g., John the Baptist), and some may have been present. But they are not able to listen to the gospel and to "speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:46). Only the people who did this received baptism as a sign of the Abrahamic "promise" of the Spirit (Gal. 3:14). I conclude that the episode in Cornelius' household not only does not support infant baptism but is also a strong indicator for disciples'/confessors' baptism.

Lydia's Household (Acts 16:15)

The case of Lydia is inconclusive. Where was Lydia's husband? She may not have been married at all. Only women are mentioned at the riverbank. And it appears that she and her household were baptized at the river before she took Paul back to her house. This opens the probability that only women were in her household (every member of which was probably at the riverbank with her) and that she was an unmarried or widowed businesswoman. Even if this is not entirely accurate, there is no mention of infants or older children in her household. Even many paedobaptists hold this instance of household baptism as inconclusive for their position.

Philippian Jailer's Household (Acts 16:30-34)

The account of the Philippian jailer is probably the best possibility for including infants in the household baptism. All his household was baptized, but it is wrong to apply the promise of verse 31 to the "covenantal baptism" of the household based upon the jailer's faith. This is clearly demonstrated in the following verses, where it is recorded that Paul and Silas preached the gospel to "all who were in his house" (v. 32) and that "all his household" (v. 34) believed in God with him.

There is a translation problem with this text that needs to be examined. J. A. Alexander (Acts) agrees that v. 31 is simply a promise of salvation by faith to the jailer and his household upon belief by both. Verse 34 is more complicated. The NASB, NIV, KJV, Williams, and Beck translations indicate that the faith which was shared by his whole household was the basis for their rejoicing: "having believed in God with his whole household." However, the participle is masculine, singular and seems to describe the faith of the jailer: "He greatly rejoiced with his whole household, having believed [that is, the jailer] in God." The emphasis seems to be that the household rejoiced with him because he had found faith (RSV, NEB).

Even if the latter interpretation is correct, we still have the problem of infants rejoicing. It is true that infants can detect and participate in joy in a household. But can infants rejoice because they realize their father has found faith in God? This may well be the basis for the whole household's rejoicing. However, because of the context in preaching the Word to all in the house and because all were resultingly baptized, I believe their rejoicing was the same as the jailer's rejoicing–the evidence of a new-found faith and redemption expressed in the joy of the Holy Spirit's regeneration. Because they all heard the gospel, were baptized, and rejoiced, it is a legitimate conclusion that they all believed. He and his "whole household" were baptized because they all believed. Can infants hear the Word and respond in faith? No. If infants were present, for which there is no proof, the context denies that they were baptized. In fact, the context suggests that no infants were present. This case of household baptism actually lends support to confessors' baptism.

Crispus' Household (Acts 18:8)

A related case which supports the same conclusion concerns the household of Crispus. Here is a definite account concerning baptism in which the whole household, along with Crispus, believed in the Lord. It should also be noted that in the same verse, the other Corinthians who were baptized had first believed. It seems clear that the whole household first believed and then were baptized. This case also positively supports confessors' baptism within households.

Stephanas' Household (1 Cor. 1:16)

The last household baptism mentioned in the New Testament is that of Stephanas by Paul. The thrust of this text is that the baptized believers were in division and controversy over who baptized them. It seems they were capable of knowing who baptized them, thus excluding infants. Further, 1 Cor. 16:15 describes the "household of Stephanas" as having devoted themselves for ministry to the saints. Infants cannot self-consciously devote themselves in such a way. Yet even if this does not prohibit infants in the household of Stephanas, the most that can be said is that we do not know if infants were present. At best, this account is inconclusive for infant baptism.

In summary, the accounts of Lydia's and Stephanas' households are inconclusive, while the accounts of Cornelius', Crispus', and the jailer's households actually point to conscious belief and regeneration before baptism. Therefore, I conclude that the weight of the household baptisms leans toward confessors' baptism.
 
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seawolf_48

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To the seed

You are my Brother and Christ chose you with me before the foundation, we have much more in common than in what we disagree about. In saying that, we are just discussing some pretty contravercial points of the Christian Reformed Faith, and I will agree to disagree. I was a Baptist since dirt was made, but now I see it differently.

Some of my best loved authors on covenant theology like Pink, Devers, Spurgeon, and Piper, all are credo-baptist, but I think that some pretty smart guys also believed like I do, that infants/children are part of the Covenant before they confess Christ as there savior (Calvin, Luther, Zwingle, Isaac Watts, etc. and they didn't blindly except paedobaptism from the Catholic Church) Can the children walk away from the faith? Yes. If they die before a certain age (4-7 years, there is no concrete year) are they saved, yes! Do they need to be baptised to be part of the covenant family, no, but we Presbyterians want to show the whole world and universe that these children belong to Christ and the Church. Believers baptism (credo-baptism) is done for non-christians recieving Christ at later ages.
It's all a matter of seeing the connection between the Covenant of Abraham with faith and circumcision, and the gentiles being believers according to the same faith that Abraham had. We are now children of Abraham! Gal 3:14,26-29; Gal 6:16; Eph 2 11-22. One covenant, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Your in Christ
 
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theseed

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Seawolf
I will agree to disagree too. But I hope that atleast you will consider that the credobaptist position has a significant amount of validity.

Abraham's Covenant, thought, is different from Christ. With Christ, we get the circumcision of Christ, not the circumcision of Abraham (Col. 2?).

In Acts, we find many examples of where people were baptized after they made a confession of faith.

We are children of Abraham, we are the Seed, but Christ is the Seed too, and we are in Christ.

Yes, children who die in childhood are part of the elect, however, not all children are elect, because not all adults are elect and all adults are children at some point. But that is another thread altogether.

With that said, I will stay on the credobaptist side.

Have good day :wave:
 
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Wrigley

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Gabriel said:
There are a few different denoms that are considered Reformed. Even some non-denoms are Reformed. :wave: Knight! One of the differences that usually come up is infant baptism and believers baptism.

We, in the PCA, believe in infant baptism as a sign and seal of the covenant made by God toward His chosen and as a sign of our understanding of our duty as part of the family of God to help in the raising up of our children. We do not believe it washes sin away, nor do we find it necessary as a completion of or a part in salvation. Additionally, we believe that once is enough. If a person has been baptised as a child, there is no need to re-baptize once a confession of faith is made. Assuming, of course, that the baptism was performed in a Christian church.

Thoughts, comments?
I am a member of a URC, and we believe as your church does.
 
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Covenant Heart

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We are not anticredobaptists. Within this year, this member’s church received a woman who was raised in a non-Christian home. Upon public profession of Christ, she was sprinkled with water as the sign of her initiation into the covenant. And the head organist in this same church is a convert from Judaism. We rejoice in the credobaptisms of all our members not baptized as infants.

Nor are we opposed to debate. Before our Brethren friend, folk_rocker_42, went berserk and got his own thread deleted, Seedy sparred with us on reformed eschatology (recall our "Gospel Age Millennium and the Great Commission" post). BUT NOTE–that was on a general debate forum.

One point should put beyond dispute that the Canons of Dort alone do not define reformed faith. The Canons make not one reference to "justification by faith" or "justified by faith." It is mentioned in the French Confession (Article 20), Belgic Confession (Art 22) and the 2nd Helvetic Confession (Arts 12, 15). It is also the battle cry of the reformation. The Canons of Dort mention it not once. So if the "five points" define reformed theology, then "justification by faith" must stand with other doctrines that some consider debatable–as infant baptism, so-called a-millennial eschatology and reformed ecclesiology. How is a board "reformed" if justification by faith is not a given?

If a Roman Catholic member who adheres to St. Augustine’ doctrine of grace posts that we are severed from Christ because we break fellowship from his Vicar and the Church of Rome–do we let that stand? If (as some say) reformed theology has no church doctrine (read the confessions, people), on what basis can we hinder that? So long as one holds St. Augustine’ doctrine of grace, they must be allowed to post on our own board that we are severed from Christ’s church. Yet we are to believe that the Canons of Dort are THE definitive reformed confession??? That won’t do!

If premises that our reformed confessions declare to be marks of a false church are held as open questions, then the most knowledgeable, consistent and contentiously reformed CF members are denied a home exactly because they subscribe to the confessions of the magisterial reformers. That won’t work; and people who can’t grasp that really need to ponder what this says about the depth and accuracy of their perception of classical reformed dogmatics. For whether considered in a confessional, historical or theological light, reformed faith necessarily entails far more than the famed "five points" set down in this late-comer to the reformed confessional family.

The Huguenots published the French Confession (prepared under Calvin’s eye) in 1559–a full 60 years before synod met to consider the Arminian remonstrance! By 1563, the Belgic and 2nd Helvetic Confessions and the Heidelberg Catechism had all been published. Had Arminius’ followers not prepared their 1610 remonstrance, the Canons would not have been written to this day! Does that mean there would be no reformed theology? Reformed churches across Europe were using these confessions for nearly six decades before anyone heard of the "five points."

Calvin himself never heard of the "five points!" He died 55 years before the Canons were written! Yet we are to believe that this one latecomer to the reformed confessional family, the Canons of Dort are THE criterion by which reformed theology is to be defined??? Was Calvin not reformed? Those who can’t see the problem here may not be the ones that we want to define our theology.

"Particular-Baptist" theology changes very significantly the way that the "five points" are held. Dr. John Gill illustrates this problem. He surely claimed the five points! He even intensified the third point saying not merely that satisfaction was efficient for the elect only, it was also sufficient for the sins of the elect only. This radical sense of election let Gill see the entire order of salvation as taking place in eternity. Justification and adoption were now external acts of God. All that took place in time was the enactment of the decree. So now, no temporal order of grace was needed. As a result, the sacraments could be seen as mere ordinances. Baptism was administered only to adults and then merely to show than that God’s external decree had been executed in them.

The logic of such theology is to see God’s electing grace an unmediated bolt from the blue. No one knows where it may strike. On Gill’s terms, grace and salvation can occur just as easily on a desert island. This view of election offers precious little consolation that one is elect whether by sharing in the covenanting community (including the voluntarily gathered church) or on the basis of belief or conduct. Always one may ask if one has sufficiently repented with sufficient sincerity.

Very different is the unconditional election and irresistible grace of the five points of the Canons of Dort. Reformed theology not only identifies God’s grace as unmerited, it also locates the primary working of that grace specifically in the covenanting community. Addressing the untimely death of infants sired by believing parents, the Canons of Dort in Head 1, Article 17 say:

"...the will of God from His Word...testifies that the children of believers are holy...in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they together with the parents are comprehended. Godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children...(Gen. 17:7; Acts 2:39; I Cor. 7:14)."

The issue of infant salvation turns not on "age of accountability" theory (which Calvin rejected–Ro 5:14) but on their unconditional inclusion in the covenant of grace by election with their parents.

We read that the marks of the church have no relevance to the five points. How odd! As they discuss our irresistible conversion to God, the Canons of Dort in Heads 3/4, Article 17 say:

"...the...operation of God by which we are regenerated…[is mediated] by the holy admonitions of the gospel, under the influence of the Word, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical discipline."

What earlier reformed confessions declare to be marks of the church–the Word, the sacraments and church discipline–the Canons of Dort identify as the means by which God’s grace irresistibly works in the manner of our conversion. So clearly, synod saw that the marks of the church ARE relevant to reformed soteriology. Anyone who has actually read the Canons of Dort knows that.

Spurning the marks of the church as early confessions define them, we can hardly embrace them where the Canons of Dort apply them as the manner by which God irresistibly converts the elect. "Particularistic-Baptists" do have A doctrine of irresistible grace. But it most assuredly is not THE irresistible grace of the five points of the Canons or of the confessions that the reformers gave us.

Moreover, the Canons of Dort also present the grace that works irresistible for our perseverance specifically in the marks of the church–the word, sacrament and church discipline. The reformed doctrine of perseverance is declared this way in Head 5 Article 14 of the Canons of Dort:

"As it has pleased God...to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments."

How then does God preserve and perfect his saints? It is by his work of grace by his Word, by its exhortations, threatenings and promises (those being the content of ecclesiastical discipline–Act 20:31; 1Co 4:14; 2Co 2:1-8; 13:2; 2Th 3:15; 1Ti 5:20; 2Ti 2:14; Ti 2:10; etc.) and the sacraments.

So the unconditional election, irresistible grace and perseverance of the Canons are ministered in the covenanting community that is defined by the marks of the church (including infant baptism), and they are ministered by those marks. Denying the administration of grace as so defined by the Canons of Dort is not upholding reformed theology. One may do this and still have A doctrine of unconditional election, A doctrine of irresistible grace and A doctrine of perseverance. But these most assuredly are not the unconditional election, the irresistible grace and the perseverance of the five points of the Canons of Dort as they expound the theology of our reformed confessions.

We read that the essence of reformed faith is defined not by the earlier confessions but solely by the doctrines of the Canons of Dort. How odd! In the concluding remarks to the Canons we read:

"...this synod of Dort in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches...on the basis of the churches’ own official confessions and of the present explanation...which has been endorsed by the unanimous consent of the members of the whole synod, one and all."

Again, anyone who cares enough actually to bother reading the Canons knows that they define "the" faith of the Reformed churches in reference to earlier "official confessions" and the Canons together. That–so says the synod and Canons of Dort–is "the faith of the Reformed churches."

Members open to participation apart from subscription to the reformed confessions already are rejecting parts of the Canons which (as they show) alters significantly how we hold our faith. If the Canons are not accepted in totality, it then becomes necessary to rule which parts are critical to reformed faith. The Canons are 22 pages long and have four Heads (Heads 3 & 4 are combined) each of which has articles and a "Rejection of Errors" section. There are in all 59 articles and 34 "Rejection of Errors" paragraphs. Have non-subscription advocates any plan for deciding which articles and paragraphs are essential to reformed faith and which should be ruled inoperative? Does their plan also say who will decide this and on what basis said decisions are to be made?

That isn’t about to happen! Even if it did, we would still have something very different than Dort. If we reject the Dort doctrine of the manner in which God’s grace works to convert and preserve the elect irresistibly, the churchly covenant in which that grace works, and the official confessions that the Canons clarify and by which they define reformed faith–then just exactly how "reformed" are we? To what extent are we in actually agreement with the theology of Dort? And not having read the Canons, how would we know whether or to what extent we do agree with that theology?

Our earlier post listed representative areas of dispute with those who in their own sense embrace the Canons of Dort–God’s work among his people, hermeneutics, philosophy of ministry, practice of spirituality, eschatology, etc. Unless participation is based on subscription to the theological system of the magisterial reformers, this board will only recreate and rehash those same, core, philosophical debates in context of these and other unnamed issues. In the process, the board itself will degenerate inexorably into a general forum where no doctrine is safe. Even the Canons of Dort will be open for debate. Indeed those who resist subscription show already that they do not hold the Canons of Dort to the same meaning or effect as synod that wrote them.

The direction in which non-subscription takes us is this: The one standard for forum participation will be the acronym "TULIP" when "TULIP" is defined by second rate (at the very best) writers who (like some here) show that they have never actually read the Canons. And if "TULIP" on their definition has some similarity reformed faith, it will be a version of "Calvinism" that no reformer, no reformed confession or denomination, and no competent reformed historian or dogmatician or professor of theology has ever held. Indeed this brand of "Calvinism" would have seen our CF members ejected from Geneva had they arrived there anytime in the mid 16th or 17th century.

We are not discussing "two ways" to be reformed. This is like comparing gold to fools gold. These two theological systems bear some similarities. But analyzed for the core truths of the churchly marks that give the five points their import and only one is found to be genuine. Now more than ever, the church needs a stable and cogent theological system in which the great doctrines of God stand forth with beauty and glory. Reformed theology does this. In contrast is an eclectic collage of beliefs in which some semblance to the Canons of Dort exists as a mere soteriological eccentricity. Why would anyone committed to reformed faith receive that?

Will there be a reformed board? In a word–"not without our confessions."

On other CF boards not for general debate, theological affinity is requisite for full participation. Do the same here. All the reformers and the confessions that address the issue make the sacrament, including infant baptism, an essential marks of the church. All the reformers and our confessions agree that God lays infant baptism upon us and that the neglect of it is a serious sin. Challenges to this and other doctrines as summed in the confessions of the magisterial reformers belong on open boards or on the board reflecting the theological affinity of the post. They do not belong on a board that is designated for reformed faith.

Antipadeobaptist posts belong on the Baptist forum or on an open board. Soteriological posts belong on the soteriological board or the board of member affinity. So also, full participation on a reformed board expects subscription to the classical reformed dogmatic systems as they are set forth in the confessions of the magisterial reformers. Without this, the CF structure means naught.

We are glad to wait patiently for a ruling that participation on the reformed board requires subscription to reformed theology as defined by the confessions of the magisterial reformers.

As we wait, we suggest that CF members ponder this final question:

Who is more qualified to define reformed faith–the synodical delegates who wrote the Canons of Dort, or CF members who list exceptions to the Canons without so much as having read them?

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 
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LynneClomina

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CH, there are a lot of people on this forum who have never had a chance to LEARN all the details of full blown "reformed" theology. so teach us, please (in short posts), dont throw us out on our coattails.

when it comes down to theology, if all one understands is that TULIP is true, it's enough to make you almost a pariah on the other forums!!!! and here you want us out, too?

also, there are reformed baptists - are they not allowed to post here becuase of the infant/believers baptism issue??? according to you, are they not reformed?

dividing the boards into general (note GENERAL) theological bents was to allow like minded people to have discussion, not do oust everyone who doesnt believe in every single detail that YOU do.

someone who believes the basic tenets of the Catholic Church but doenst know them all isnt ousted from OBOB for not having all their doctrine down pat. i would hazard a guess that a Catholic who though that baptism biblically should be by immersion would be allowed to debate that issue, because fundamentally, they are Catholic.

btw, i am personally learning alot about infant baptism, covanent style, that is very convincing - you would have had me out of the room so that i could not debate the issue at all? i dunno, i'm more in the mind of converting "heretics", than burning them.
 
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