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Infant Baptism

Covenant Heart

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LynneClomina said:
yeah, that a true jew is one who has had the circumsicion of the heart. ie. all believers are those who are under the covanent of abraham....
Hi Lynne!

Sorry if this is a repeat (we did not refer to the link). But your reference to "circumcision of the heart" is entirely Biblical. Paul uses this expression in Ro 2:28-29 where he says that "a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit."


In reformed theology, baptism is a picture-symbol of the Spirit's work.

It may help to recall the gospel promise. God promises to give his Spirit to cleanse and adopt all who believe on his Son, Jesus Christ. Baptism is a picture of just that. Just as surely as water washes filth from the body, so the Spirit applies the blood of Christ for the cleansing of all those who trust him.

Baptism is God's promise to save all who believe. Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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theseed

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Here is an article from a Calvinist who was once paedobaptist, but made a switch to credobpaptism. It is a legnthy one written by someone with a PhD :sorry:

Anyways, it only discusses infant baptism, and not mode. And he states up front that Calvinism is obvious from Gen. to Rev., and that his thorn was baptism.

He is real thorough in explaining why 9 arguments are questionable in regards to infant baptism.

http://www.founders.org/library/malone1/malone_text.html
 
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theseed

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Bulldog said:
Regeneration is the act where the Holy SPirit gives a lowly sinner, wh would never come to Christ on his won, new desires. Regeneration is precedent to faith.
Litterally, it means to give life again. Hence, Adam and Eve were generate until they sinned, then they became degenerate--with exception that they maintained faith in God, and with God establishing a covenant with them (Gen. 3)--we can assume that God regenerated thier spirit.
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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theseed said:
Here is an article from a Calvinist who was once paedobaptist, but made a switch to credobpaptism. It is a legnthy one written by someone with a PhD :sorry:

Anyways, it only discusses infant baptism, and not mode. And he states up front that Calvinism is obvious from Gen. to Rev., and that his thorn was baptism.

He is real thorough in explaining why 9 arguments are questionable in regards to infant baptism.

http://www.founders.org/library/malone1/malone_text.html
And here is an article from a former Credeobaptist turned paedeobaptist. Keep in mind that this author used to write papers and apologetics on why infant baptism was wrong - but now refutes his prior beliefs. This is a refutation of his previous writings. This is just one statement from him - if you click on 'back to covenant theology and baptism' after reading this - you will see his other writings. Very well done.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/MyRetraction.htm
 
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Covenant Heart

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...The reformers propounded infant baptism to a man as is evident in the confessional documents that they forged. But however important soteriology is to the the reformed interpretation of our undoubted Christian faith, it is neither the essence nor theological centerpiece of that faith whether considered from an historical, confessional or theological standpoint.

Baptistic believers agree with us as we confess that the Scriptures are the word of God, that they are the only infallible rule of faith and practice for the believer. They agree with us when we affirm the necessity of a living faith in Jesus Christ. But agreement in such areas would not warrant our posting padeobaptist links and text on the Baptist forum as that would disrespect our baptistic brothers (and sisters). This we will not do. For that reason, it is proper to ask that antipadeobaptist links and text not be posted here but on the baptistic board. Of course anyone can post on the general forum. Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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A. believer

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Covenant Heart said:
...
Baptistic believers agree with us as we confess that the Scriptures are the word of God, that they are the only infallible rule of faith and practice for the believer. They agree with us when we affirm the necessity of a living faith in Jesus Christ. But agreement in such areas would not warrant our posting padeobaptist links and text on the Baptist forum as that would disrespect our baptistic brothers (and sisters). This we will not do. For that reason, it is proper to ask that antipadeobaptist links and text not be posted here but on the baptistic board. Of course anyone can post on the general forum. Blessings!

Covenant Heart
So does that mean that Reformed Baptists can only discuss their credobaptist views on the Baptist forum and not on the Reformed Forum? Then what about their Reformed soteriology? They can only discuss that here? That's just silly. I liked it when we were plain old P/R/E.
 
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Bulldog

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So does that mean that Reformed Baptists can only discuss their credobaptist views on the Baptist forum and not on the Reformed Forum? Then what about their Reformed soteriology? They can only discuss that here? That's just silly. I liked it when we were plain old P/R/E.

I believe that Reformed Baptists can speak about anything (rules Pending) in here. This forum is reformed, and RB's are reformed.
 
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theseed

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CH said:
For that reason, it is proper to ask that antipadeobaptist links and text not be posted here but on the baptistic board. Of course anyone can post on the general forum.

Yes, this is a theolgoy board, and not a denominational board, so baptism can be argued in light of reformed soteriology.
 
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theseed

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HopeTheyDance said:
And here is an article from a former Credeobaptist turned paedeobaptist. Keep in mind that this author used to write papers and apologetics on why infant baptism was wrong - but now refutes his prior beliefs. This is a refutation of his previous writings. This is just one statement from him - if you click on 'back to covenant theology and baptism' after reading this - you will see his other writings. Very well done.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/MyRetraction.htm
My article is much longer, 47 Pages to be exact :D
 
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theseed

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CH said:
For that reason, it is proper to ask that antipadeobaptist links and text not be posted here but on the baptistic board.

The link I posted was not anti-paedobaptist, and as you will note, not all Calvinist/reformed believe infant baptism to be scriptural.
 
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BBAS 64

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theseed said:
The link I posted was not anti-paedobaptist, and as you will note, not all Calvinist/reformed believe infant baptism to be scriptural.
Good Day, The seed

I am in agreement with you on this point. One being a Calvinist does not require a belief that infant Baptism is Biblical. Great Link too by the way.

Bill
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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Although I am padeobapist, as the majority may be on this forum...I understand that many here are not, and have no problem with a debate or discussion regarding infant baptism. I do not believe it to be disrespectful to post sites with a credeobaptistic view, as being Reformed does not require you to hold to any baptism view. The Seed, feel free to post your view...I welcome it as I am sure you do mine.
 
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theseed

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HopeTheyDance said:
Although I am padeobapist, as the majority may be on this forum...I understand that many here are not, and have no problem with a debate or discussion regarding infant baptism. I do not believe it to be disrespectful to post sites with a credeobaptistic view, as being Reformed does not require you to hold to any baptism view. The Seed, feel free to post your view...I welcome it as I am sure you do mine.
I'm credobaptist of course. But my intention was not to debate or discuss but simply provide some information that could help Gabriel in his search. And that was the most relevant link I had for someone of reformed theology.

I know that when I was researching the Calvinism/Arminiasm debate, I read arguments from both sides.

And I suppose I may have came off rudely though when I said the article was 47 pages and I apologize to all :)

I managed to squeeze the article down to 20 pages, front and back, 10 point Times New Roman font with .5 inch margins :D
 
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theseed

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HopeTheyDance said:
Although I am padeobapist, as the majority may be on this forum...I understand that many here are not, and have no problem with a debate or discussion regarding infant baptism. I do not believe it to be disrespectful to post sites with a credeobaptistic view, as being Reformed does not require you to hold to any baptism view. The Seed, feel free to post your view...I welcome it as I am sure you do mine.
I noticed that you see infant baptism as coventanental--you may be interested in reading the first part of the article I posted.
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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Theseed,

I used to lean towards the credeobaptist view - but through research and such, I am now pedeobaptist. I too, always study things from both sides - hearing both sides out. I do not believe in discussing things if you do not know the other view well. KWIM?
I will take a look at the link - sounds interesting. At the same time, please sift through the link I provided. If anything, you may like the website - it is strictly Reformed and touches on many subjects, not only baptism., (which I am not trying to change your view on) ;)
 
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theseed

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HopeTheyDance said:
Theseed,

I used to lean towards the credeobaptist view - but through research and such, I am now pedeobaptist. I too, always study things from both sides - hearing both sides out. I do not believe in discussing things if you do not know the other view well. KWIM?
I will take a look at the link - sounds interesting. At the same time, please sift through the link I provided. If anything, you may like the website - it is strictly Reformed and touches on many subjects, not only baptism., (which I am not trying to change your view on) ;)
Ok, I will :) when I get the time.
 
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Covenant Heart

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Our request is not asked from a lack of charity but with a desire to preserve it. Neither denominational loyalties nor personal vendettas are at issue. The issue is that the classical dogmatic systems of reformed theology and our reformed confessions are not arbitrary list of ideas that are more or less biblical. It is rather that our confessions embody patterns of teaching that are lifted from Scripture and are carefully correlated in ways that interpret the whole of Christian existence at every point.

So the famed five points have never been solely or even primarily the basis for identifying one as holding reformed faith. In a confessionally reformed denomination such as the one in which this member is deeply privileged to be an elder, this would never be disputed. The reason is that it is a virtual truism in such churches that the Canons do not stand by themselves as THE confession of the church. The Canons were a confessional latecomer; they exist to clarify disputed points in the full confession of reformed faith as set forth in the Belgic Confession, the Second Helvetic and the Scots Confessions of Faith, the Heidelberger, Geneva Catechism and other such statements.

In reformed faith, sacraments relate closely to the temporal administration of grace, to the way that God deals with his people, and establishes and maintains his church. The sacraments relate to our view of God’s peoples in two testaments and our hermeneutical approach to the Scriptures. They relate to our philosophy of ministry, to our practice of specifically reformed spirituality, and to our view of the believer’s relationship to the world. They certainly relate to eschatology. We have debated this with Seedy already. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper as mere ordinances represent a theology that is alien to the reformed interpretation of our Christian faith. If this is not grasped, we will soon be fighting the same philosophical battle on these and other fields not here named over and over and over again. The discussion of reformed distinctives will seem uncharitable, and the board will become "reformed" in name only. You can learn this now or later. We prefer now.

In his Institutes of the Christian Religion (4-1-9), John Calvin wrote:

"...wherever we see...the sacraments administered according to Christ’s institution, there it is not to be doubted a church of God exists."
It is important to understand that this is no idiosyncrasy of Calvin’s. When they address the marks of the church, the confessions that the reformers framed concur with Calvin that the sacraments–including infant baptism–is a necessary mark without which there can be and is no true church.

The Second Helvetic Confession in Chapter 20 on Holy Baptism states:

"God separates us from all strange religions and peoples by the symbol of baptism...We condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that newborn infants of the faithful are to be baptized."
The Confession of Rochelle (also called the Gallican Confession) states in Article 28:

"There can be no Church where the Word of God is not received, nor profession made of subjection to it, nor use of the sacraments."
To that, we must add Article 35 as it states:

"...upon the authority of Jesus Christ...the children of believing parents should be baptized."
The Belgic Confession of Faith, Article 29 on "The Marks of the True Church, and Wherein it Differs from the False Church" also teaches this doctrine. It says:

"...we ought diligently...to discern from the Word of God which is the true Church, since all sects which are in the world assume to themselves the name of the Church...Hereby the true Church may certainly be known, from which no man has a right to separate himself. – If it maintains the pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by Christ."

"As for the false Church, it ascribes more power and authority to itself and its ordinances than to the Word of God, and will not submit itself to the yoke of Christ. Neither does it administer the sacraments as appointed by Christ in His Word."
Beside this we place the words of Belgic Confession, Article 34 "Holy Baptism." It says that as

"...Christ shed His blood no less for the washing of the children of believers than for adult persons...they ought to receive the sign and sacrament of that which Christ has done for them."

"We detest the error of the Anabaptists who... condemn the baptism of the infants of believers, who we believe ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as the children in Israel formerly were circumcised upon the same promises which are made unto our children."
John Calvin, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Wolfgang Musculus, other reformers plus their confessions concur that without baptism (including infant baptism), no true church exists. How is antipadeobaptism compatible with reformed theology when the 16th century magisterial reformers and the confessions that they bequeathed to us indicate that the absence of baptism (including infant baptism) is a mark of the false church? Will we have our confessions or not?

Without being uncharitable, hard questions must sometimes be asked. If antipadeobaptic posts may stand, can we reply with the words of our own confessions–that religious bodies refusing to administer the sacrament are not true churches at all, but are false churches, that they are sects which mistakenly take to themselves the name "church?" Can we affirm our confessions as they despise the error of those who condemn the baptism of the infants of believers? Can we declare with our confessions that such churches refuse to submit themselves to the yoke of Christ?

This member does not care to be put in the position of having to say such things. But if we cannot speak the words of our own confessions that the reformers themselves bequeathed to us, in what sense is the board devoted to the reformed confessional system? Will we be allowed to speak the conviction of our confessions in good faith or not? Can we be confessionally reformed on all the points of our confession or not?

That members with eclectic beliefs be invited to post both on the baptistic and reformed boards on the basis of theological affinity is more than equitable. Whereas a soteriological board already exists, that suggestion is extremely generous. There is also a newly formed board for baptistic distinctives, issues and concerns. Antipadeobaptist posts belong there.

We will not negotiate our reformed confessions our ecclesiology. The question is called.

We call for a moderator ruling.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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theseed

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Covenant Heart said:
That members with eclectic beliefs be invited to post both on the baptistic and reformed boards on the basis of theological affinity is more than equitable. Whereas a soteriological board already exists, that suggestion is extremely generous. There is also a newly formed board for baptistic distinctives, issues and concerns. Antipadeobaptist posts belong there.

You say that we are antipadeobaptist, then that would mean that you are anticredobaptist. Reformed theology is just that, theology, it is not Scripture and the word of God, but only based on the word of God.

The name of this forum is Semper Reformanda which means "always reforming", therefore, we are right to qustion the theology and confessions of any men.

Because men are fallible bu scripture is infallible.

The only way to enter the New Covenant is by a regenerated heart, which is marked by faith in Christ. Faith is the means of entering the New Covenant, not baptism (Jer. 31).

Don't you know that many are Baptists because they hold to reformed theology?

 
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LynneClomina

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Covenant Heart said:
Our request is not asked from a lack of charity but with a desire to preserve it. Neither denominational loyalties nor personal vendettas are at issue. The issue is that the classical dogmatic systems of reformed theology and our reformed confessions are not arbitrary list of ideas that are more or less biblical. It is rather that our confessions embody patterns of teaching that are lifted from Scripture and are carefully correlated in ways that interpret the whole of Christian existence at every point.

So the famed five points have never been solely or even primarily the basis for identifying one as holding reformed faith. In a confessionally reformed denomination such as the one in which this member is deeply privileged to be an elder, this would never be disputed. The reason is that it is a virtual truism in such churches that the Canons do not stand by themselves as THE confession of the church. The Canons were a confessional latecomer; they exist to clarify disputed points in the full confession of reformed faith as set forth in the Belgic Confession, the Second Helvetic and the Scots Confessions of Faith, the Heidelberger, Geneva Catechism and other such statements.

In reformed faith, sacraments relate closely to the temporal administration of grace, to the way that God deals with his people, and establishes and maintains his church. The sacraments relate to our view of God’s peoples in two testaments and our hermeneutical approach to the Scriptures. They relate to our philosophy of ministry, to our practice of specifically reformed spirituality, and to our view of the believer’s relationship to the world. They certainly relate to eschatology. We have debated this with Seedy already. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper as mere ordinances represent a theology that is alien to the reformed interpretation of our Christian faith. If this is not grasped, we will soon be fighting the same philosophical battle on these and other fields not here named over and over and over again. The discussion of reformed distinctives will seem uncharitable, and the board will become "reformed" in name only. You can learn this now or later. We prefer now.

In his Institutes of the Christian Religion (4-1-9), John Calvin wrote:

It is important to understand that this is no idiosyncrasy of Calvin’s. When they address the marks of the church, the confessions that the reformers framed concur with Calvin that the sacraments–including infant baptism–is a necessary mark without which there can be and is no true church.

The Second Helvetic Confession in Chapter 20 on Holy Baptism states:

The Confession of Rochelle (also called the Gallican Confession) states in Article 28:

To that, we must add Article 35 as it states:

The Belgic Confession of Faith, Article 29 on "The Marks of the True Church, and Wherein it Differs from the False Church" also teaches this doctrine. It says:

Beside this we place the words of Belgic Confession, Article 34 "Holy Baptism." It says that as

John Calvin, Heinrich Bullinger, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Wolfgang Musculus, other reformers plus their confessions concur that without baptism (including infant baptism), no true church exists. How is antipadeobaptism compatible with reformed theology when the 16th century magisterial reformers and the confessions that they bequeathed to us indicate that the absence of baptism (including infant baptism) is a mark of the false church? Will we have our confessions or not?

Without being uncharitable, hard questions must sometimes be asked. If antipadeobaptic posts may stand, can we reply with the words of our own confessions–that religious bodies refusing to administer the sacrament are not true churches at all, but are false churches, that they are sects which mistakenly take to themselves the name "church?" Can we affirm our confessions as they despise the error of those who condemn the baptism of the infants of believers? Can we declare with our confessions that such churches refuse to submit themselves to the yoke of Christ?

This member does not care to be put in the position of having to say such things. But if we cannot speak the words of our own confessions that the reformers themselves bequeathed to us, in what sense is the board devoted to the reformed confessional system? Will we be allowed to speak the conviction of our confessions in good faith or not? Can we be confessionally reformed on all the points of our confession or not?

That members with eclectic beliefs be invited to post both on the baptistic and reformed boards on the basis of theological affinity is more than equitable. Whereas a soteriological board already exists, that suggestion is extremely generous. There is also a newly formed board for baptistic distinctives, issues and concerns. Antipadeobaptist posts belong there.

We will not negotiate our reformed confessions our ecclesiology. The question is called.

We call for a moderator ruling.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
there are a LOT of ppl on the reformed board who do not belong to a "reformed" church, perse, who do not follow any specific types of confessiong or ecclesiology, who are calvinistic. this forum is not for only those who are in "reformed" churches - it's for anyone who has an affinity for reformed style theology - and that includes any calvinists, whether they baptise infants or not. they are not "invited" to post on our thread out of a sense of kindness to some lesser cousins, they are equal members on this forum. and there needs to be a flow of love, kindness, and bearing with each other when there are doctinal differences, not confrontation and belittlement, such as tha people belong to a "false" church or are not really christians. this is in complete accordance with the rules of CF that are already in place.
 
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