Infallibility

[Deren]

How do you know that it's closed?

Has anything of substance come forth in the past two thousand years that would cause anyone to think otherwise? Besides, with the revelation of Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1-2) and the advent of the Holy Spirit among God's people (Jn. 14:25; 1 Jn. 2:27), there is no need for additional revelation of the variety we see in the Bible. And hence, we will not see any either.

 

[Deren]

Something I never seem to get a clear answer on in these discussions (and I hope this isn't going to send the thread off on a tangent) is where infallibility actually enters the picture? Is it a biblical reference (and which one), a later decree, or just someone's idea of a reasonable claim?

Because God is infallible, and the author of the Bible, then it automatically follows that the Bible is infallible.

 

[Deren]

KJV English Concordance for "Infallibility"
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Sorry! the word Infallibility doesn't occur in the KJV

And KJV English Concordance doesn't occur in the KJV either. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Come'on buck, you can do better than use the fallacious argument from silence.

 

[Deren]

Actually it's not. Even if you assume a late date for Revelation, the Johannine epistles and 2 Peter were certainly written later.

Actually, that is not true. John's subsequent letters were most likely written at about the same time as his gospel, with as late a date as 85 A.D.

2 Peter was written around 68 A.D.

The Book of Revelation was the last of the biblical books, written anywhere from 90-95 A.D.

So, darceri is correct.

Why must all revelations of God be biblical events?

They aren't. My take is that all darceri was saying was that the next revelation of Jesus/God would be when Jesus returned to the earth in support of the position that the biblical canon is closed.

 

[Deren]

To understand correctly the infallibility we shall understand that the infallibility belongs to the Church, and that it can be expressed in various way: pope, communion of bishops, ecumenical councils, liturgy, bible, Early Fathers, local council and synods, uses...

No, infallibility cannot belong to the Church, because the Church is not God. Only God is infallible, and since He is the one who authored the Bible, then it follows that it, too, is infallible. But, to be saying that the Church is infallible, when it is filled with many fallible people, is to equate it with God, and that is stretching the bounds of credulity.

 

[a_ntv]

No, infallibility cannot belong to the Church, because the Church is not God. Only God is infallible, and since He is the one who authored the Bible, then it follows that it, too, is infallible. But, to be saying that the Church is infallible, when it is filled with many fallible people, is to equate it with God, and that is stretching the bounds of credulity.

Well, we here have slightly different ideas of Church.

If the Church were simply a sum of christians, you are right.

But the Church is the mystical (hidden) Body of Christ.
Col 1:18 He is the head of the Body, the Church;
1Cor12:27 Now you are the Body of Christ and individually members of it.

The Church is a human phenomenon that carries the divine within it.
The Church is reality given form by men and women, but in the same time the Church surpasses the human reality of its components and stands as the continuation of the event of Christ’s entry into human history.

This is the reason for the Church, even if it is not God, can carry a divine attribute, the infallibility.

And the infallibilty is in the direction of the the three attibutes of Jesus: the Way, the Life, the Truth
- the Life: performing (in a infallible way) the Baptism (and the other sacraments), the Church gives the eternal live
- the Way: the Church leads to act in a moral way, to pray with heart, to follow the sacrament, to love the other in order to follow Him (infallibility in moral...)
- the Truth: the Church teachs (infallibly) the true doctrine of the faith

 

[Margim]

So, the responses so far have said that infallibility comes from God, the Bible, and the Church, even though no one has actually referenced where the idea of infallibility comes from (or inerrency, for that matter).

What we seem to be left with is a collection of passages that could speak of such infallibility or inerrancy, yet actually require reader interpretation to arrive at such a conclusion.

When all messages, written, communicated through tradition or otherwise, must therefore be interpreted by fallen, broken, struggling humans, how can any message be understood as infallible? I'm still not clear on where this doctrine 'got in' to the church.

 

[DArceri]

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[DArceri]

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[DArceri]

So, the responses so far have said that infallibility comes from God, the Bible, and the Church, even though no one has actually referenced where the idea of infallibility comes from (or inerrency, for that matter).

What we seem to be left with is a collection of passages that could speak of such infallibility or inerrancy, yet actually require reader interpretation to arrive at such a conclusion.

When all messages, written, communicated through tradition or otherwise, must therefore be interpreted by fallen, broken, struggling humans, how can any message be understood as infallible? I'm still not clear on where this doctrine 'got in' to the church.

Does the Holy Spirit speak to you when you read the Psalms, proverbs, etc.....?

When the prophets spoke of a Messiah, do you think they were all mad men when they prophesized. Or did all those prophecies come true?

When you read the Gospels, do you think all the apostles got together and conspired and made up the stories of Jesus? And then chose to be martyred for there lies?

You either accept the Bible as the Word of God or you don't. If you don't then you can't trust anything that is written in the bible. If it does have divine origin, then it is infallible.

 

[Deren]

Well, we here have slightly different ideas of Church.

If the Church were simply a sum of christians, you are right.

But the Church is the mystical (hidden) Body of Christ.
Col 1:18 He is the head of the Body, the Church;
1Cor12:27 Now you are the Body of Christ and individually members of it.

The Church is a human phenomenon that carries the divine within it.
The Church is reality given form by men and women, but in the same time the Church surpasses the human reality of its components and stands as the continuation of the event of Christ’s entry into human history.

This is the reason for the Church, even if it is not God, can carry a divine attribute, the infallibility.

Indeed, the Church is the sum of Christians, and it is the Body of Christ. But, it is not Christ himself. It is a composite of adopted sinners who still have the sin nature to wrestle with, who have been redeemed by God's grace. Hence, it is not infallible, simply because the composition of the Church still has the sin nature abiding within.

And the infallibilty is in the direction of the the three attibutes of Jesus: the Way, the Life, the Truth
- the Life: performing (in a infallible way) the Baptism (and the other sacraments), the Church gives the eternal live
- the Way: the Church leads to act in a moral way, to pray with heart, to follow the sacrament, to love the other in order to follow Him (infallibility in moral...)
- the Truth: the Church teachs (infallibly) the true doctrine of the faith

Lots of allegory going on here without an ounce of biblical support. Sorry. Once again, only God is infallible, otherwise you're equating fallible human beings, who are still wrestling with the sin nature, with God, and I really don't think you want to go there, do you? Are you equating yourself with God? If not, then your allegory falls short, God remains the only infallible being, and His Book the only infallible document given to humanity, since God is its author.

 

[Deren]

So, the responses so far have said that infallibility comes from God, the Bible, and the Church, even though no one has actually referenced where the idea of infallibility comes from (or inerrency, for that matter).

Again, that which is inspired of God is both infallible and inerrant (both of which mean the same thing). And since the Bible is revealed to be "God-breathed," then it is infallible, since God is infallible (2 Tim. 3:16).

What we seem to be left with is a collection of passages that could speak of such infallibility or inerrancy, yet actually require reader interpretation to arrive at such a conclusion.

Actually, it has nothing to do with interpretation at all. It has to do with common sense.

When all messages, written, communicated through tradition or otherwise, must therefore be interpreted by fallen, broken, struggling humans, how can any message be understood as infallible? I'm still not clear on where this doctrine 'got in' to the church.

Interpretation has nothing to do with whether or not the Bible is "God-breathed," though. All kinds of people dream up all kinds of interpretations of given passages, some of which are just plain false. But, that does not effect whether or not the Bible is still inspired, and hence infallible.

 

[Assisi]

While the current discussion is quite interesting, the OP led me to a different line of thought. I see in those around me that many reject the thought that the Pope can speak authoritatively without error and that the Church can not tell Christians what to do. At the same time these people will change the entire direction of their lives because one of their friends had a 'prophetic word', or change their beliefs (sometimes to something very weird) based on a 'conviction' which they are 100% sure is true.

This leads me to wonder... We know that God is Truth. Is that truth manifest in the world? Ie can we know what that Truth is? And if it is present in the world will anyone who sees it automatically identify it as truth? Are the people who don't know the truth blind because they have not yet come across the Truth in this area? Or are they blind because something (ie the devil) is clouding their perception?

 

[Assisi]

ps. In Catholic belief, the Pope is not the only one who can speak authoritatively, this is in fact the role of the whole council of Bishops. The Pope maintains unity within the Bishops. Ie. if they disagree we (the faithful) can know who is right because the Pope will tell us - we believe God won't let him lead us astray.

 

[Margim]

Again, that which is inspired of God is both infallible and inerrant (both of which mean the same thing). And since the Bible is revealed to be "God-breathed," then it is infallible, since God is infallible (2 Tim. 3:16).



Actually, it has nothing to do with interpretation at all. It has to do with common sense.



Interpretation has nothing to do with whether or not the Bible is "God-breathed," though. All kinds of people dream up all kinds of interpretations of given passages, some of which are just plain false. But, that does not effect whether or not the Bible is still inspired, and hence infallible.

Respectfully, and taking into account what you've written, I'm still then left wondering where this doctrine of infallibility of God comes from?

 

[a_ntv]

Indeed, the Church is the sum of Christians, and it is the Body of Christ. But, it is not Christ himself. It is a composite of adopted sinners who still have the sin nature to wrestle with, who have been redeemed by God's grace. Hence, it is not infallible, simply because the composition of the Church still has the sin nature abiding within.

No
The Creed we say is very clear: We believe in one, holy , catholic,and apostolic Church.

With the baptism the Christian is a new creature, holy in the nature,
Rom8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Ok we still sin, but our deep nature is already made holy by Him, as and more than Adam before the fall.More:

Jesus said In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (John 14:20 )

you in Christ and Christ in you

note: here the you is only plural in Greek: it refers to all the new born Christians, as a group, not as singles

It is clear that in the Church there is something of divine.....Christ Himself