Inevitable problem with abiogenesis

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,058
✟326,854.00
Faith
Atheist
Sure mistakes can happen, but that doesn't mean they will happen. If something is shown to be true for as long as anyone exists(including God), then it's safe to conclude it's actually true.
If mistakes can happen, then you can't be sure they haven't happened. The point is, you can't be 100% sure that something apparently shown to be true actually is true. Human history provides plenty of examples of that.

I agree, we should reject what we realize is false and accept what is true and trust that more truth will be revealed for as long as anyone exists(including God).
You appear to be missing the point : you can't know for certain that what you accept as true really is true (except for analytic propositions). A wise man exercises skepticism, critical thinking, continually challenges his assumptions, and grants that what he thinks is true may not be.
 
Upvote 0

Chriliman

Everything I need to be joyful is right here
May 22, 2015
5,895
569
✟163,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If mistakes can happen, then you can't be sure they haven't happened. The point is, you can't be 100% sure that something apparently shown to be true actually is true. Human history provides plenty of examples of that.

According to you, you can be certain that an analytic proposition is true.

You appear to be missing the point : you can't know for certain that what you accept as true really is true (except for analytic propositions).

So you can know for sure that what you accept as true, really is true as long as it's an analytic proposition. <note this entire statement is an analytic proposition.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you mean; you can't prove that an abiogenesis event wasn't arranged/directed by an intelligence?

Edit: however, the intelligence that arranged/directed the abiogenesis event could prove that it arranged it via demonstration.

Yes, I misspoke.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chriliman
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,058
✟326,854.00
Faith
Atheist
According to you, you can be certain that an analytic proposition is true.
Analytic propositions are logical or mathematical; true, false, or undecidable, by definition. They can be expressed as syllogisms (valid arguments).

So you can know for sure that what you accept as true, really is true as long as it's an analytic proposition. <note this entire statement is an analytic proposition.
Yes - as long as it's a valid analytic proposition you can know its truth value by definition (1+1=2 is true. 1+1=3 is false).
 
Upvote 0

Chriliman

Everything I need to be joyful is right here
May 22, 2015
5,895
569
✟163,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Analytic propositions are logical or mathematical; true, false, or undecidable, by definition. They can be expressed as syllogisms (valid arguments).

Yes - as long as it's a valid analytic proposition you can know its truth value by definition (1+1=2 is true. 1+1=3 is false).

Fantastic, we agree!
 
Upvote 0

Chriliman

Everything I need to be joyful is right here
May 22, 2015
5,895
569
✟163,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, almost forgot to address these comments.

That's just saying demonstrations require demonstrators. Don't confuse the map with the territory, the proposed abiogenesis of life on Earth wasn't a demonstration.

How do you know it wasn't a demonstration? Do you deny the possibility that intelligent life planted life on earth? If so, how do you know it's not possible?

There's a difference between 'trying to make it happen' and 'trying to find the conditions under which it can happen on its own'. If you provide conditions that could plausibly occur on Earth naturally at the relevant time, and then it 'just happens on its own', you plausibly demonstrate that it could naturally 'just happen on its own' on Earth at the relevant time.

Several discoveries of abiogenesis research have followed this pattern; the spontaneous (and surprising) appearance of life-related structure or chemistry in plausible early Earth conditions - vesicles that grow and divide, lipid membranes, amino acids, DNA and RNA components and precursors, core metabolic pathways, etc.

The ideal goal of abiogenesis research would be a single experiment where replicators assemble in an environment that could plausibly have occurred on early Earth - although I think it's unlikely that a single experiment will produce life, because some stages will probably be statistically improbable, and the conditions might need dynamic periodicity and extended timescales. Nevertheless, if every significant stage can be demonstrated in conditions that could plausibly have occurred on early Earth, it would be sufficient confirmation that spontaneous abiogenesis was possible.

So how long should scientists try to figure out the correct conditions before concluding it couldn't have happened via naturally occurring conditions that were not influenced by any conscious being?

For you personally, what would it take to convince you conscious intent was behind the emergence of life on earth?
 
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
How do you know it wasn't a demonstration? Do you deny the possibility that intelligent life planted life on earth? If so, how do you know it's not possible?

Your view is similar to the Genesis account which shows that Adam was made on the first world with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22 He lived and died on the first Earth which was clean dissolved in the flood. As his firmament sank in Lake Van, Turkey 11,000 years ago, it released the covered Ark into our world. Human (descendants of Adam) civilization, on our Earth, can be traced to the arrival of the Ark in the largest Lake in Turkey, which is in the mountains of Ararat. God Bless you
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,058
✟326,854.00
Faith
Atheist
How do you know it wasn't a demonstration? Do you deny the possibility that intelligent life planted life on earth? If so, how do you know it's not possible?
Well, of course we can't know for certain what happened; perhaps aliens from another planet, one or more of the many gods humans have believed in, or intelligent slime from another universe, or maybe magic pixies. We don't know, and we can imagine an infinite variety of possibilities. Judicious application of known physics can reduce most of those possibilities to 'vanishingly small', but even so, most of what remains is untestable.

All we have evidence for is that there was a time when life - as we know it - wasn't possible on Earth, and soon (geologically speaking) after it became hospitable for life, very simple forms of life appeared; and since then it's become increasingly complex. In other words, the available evidence is consistent with what we'd expect if the simplest forms of life emerged spontaneously when conditions became suitable.

Scientists are curious to know how that might have happened, if what appears to be the case actually was the case; and if a plausible natural means is discovered, that would potentially explain both how life on Earth appeared and why we've found no evidence of another explanation. It wouldn't mean that we know what happened - there might be many other natural routes to life, or some external intelligence might be deceiving us, etc.; but non-natural explanations would become unnecessary, or superfluous; Occam could sleep clean-shaven.

So, until or unless we find evidence that gives us good reason to believe that some external intelligence was involved, it seems reasonable to proceed with the assumption default hypothesis that there was no intelligent life on Earth before there was any life on Earth.

So how long should scientists try to figure out the correct conditions before concluding it couldn't have happened via naturally occurring conditions that were not influenced by any conscious being?
That would require discovering conclusive evidence that a conscious being was involved. As I already said, not (yet) being able to demonstrate something in the lab doesn't demonstrate that it can't or couldn't happen. A look at human history shows that explanations for natural phenomena can take a very long time to discover, and often in the face of an existing consensus that must be overturned (evolution by natural selection, and Einstein's relativity spring to mind).

There have been some lines of abiogenesis research that were shown to be literally dead ends. Other lines encountered apparent road-blocks to progress, such as a proposed reaction sequence that couldn't complete because one step was energetically unfavourable; in at least one such case, it was subsequently found that other chemistry in the same environment produced a simple catalyst that facilitated the otherwise unlikely reaction step. Organic chemistry is incredibly complex, and the variety of potentially suitable natural environments is vast, so we have to be extremely wary of throwing up our hands and saying, "we give up, it can't happen under natural conditions!" - in fact, logically, we can never say this, since we can't exhaust all the possibilities - at best we could say, "We still don't know the answer, but we've decided to stop looking."

But so much progress has been made in abiogenesis research in such a short time, that finding a plausible pathway to simple replicators is looking increasingly likely.

For you personally, what would it take to convince you conscious intent was behind the emergence of life on earth?
That would require discovering conclusive evidence that a conscious being was involved; for example, the indisputable discovery of artefacts in rocks of the period between conditions becoming habitable and the first recognised life, or a vast blue elephant-headed creature moving the stars of the milky way around to spell, "I'm Ganesh, and I created life on Earth!" in every known language, etc.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,158
51,516
Guam
✟4,910,525.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, of course we can't know for certain what happened; perhaps aliens from another planet, one or more of the many gods humans have believed in, or intelligent slime from another universe, or maybe magic pixies. We don't know, and we can imagine an infinite variety of possibilities. Judicious application of known physics can reduce most of those possibilities to 'vanishingly small', but even so, most of what remains is untestable.
Science is myopic.
 
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
That would require discovering conclusive evidence that a conscious being was involved; for example, the indisputable discovery of artefacts in rocks of the period between conditions becoming habitable and the first recognised life,

Conclusive physical evidence of life from before the big bang of our cosmos is awaiting discovery today. It's the bottom of Adam's solid firmament, which was made Billions of years before the big bang. The bottom of the firmament is miles wide and worth more than any object on planet Earth. It's discovery is imminent since I have told many greedy scientists and religionists where to find it and they know it will make them the richest people on Earth.

When it's discovered and announced, tell everyone a Creationist told you about it before it was found. God Bless you
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟281,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Science is myopic.
When you say that, it makes me wonder if you know what myopic means. It means nearsighted, which science isn't, since it covers quite a few broad subjects. It can also mean lacking the ability to predict, a capacity crucial to scientific theories, so that definition is out. There's plenty of imagination and adventure to be had in scientific progress, so those don't work either. Yeah, science isn't myopic.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,158
51,516
Guam
✟4,910,525.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
When you say that, it makes me wonder if you know what myopic means.
When science can build a machine that can do this:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

... then I'll reconsider its eyesight.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,521
2,609
✟95,463.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
When science can build a machine that can do this:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

... then I'll reconsider its eyesight.
-_- movie projector. Seriously.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟281,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
When science can build a machine that can do this:

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

... then I'll reconsider its eyesight.
When has this ever been built?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums