Inducing brain state via music

[TheOldWays]

How do you define meditation?

anything that limits your internal monologue.

 

[cloudyday2]

anything that limits your internal monologue.

When I feel that I am in a trance state, I become very aware and interested while also being very panoramic and passive. I'm somewhat artistically inclined, so I begin to notice every detail around me simultaneously. It's a panoramic view but also extremely detailed as though the normal noise-filtering algorithms in my brain are turned-off. I'm very absorbed in looking and listening without daring to move and disturb the state. There aren't a lot of thoughts about myself, because I am focused on my surroundings.

How does that compare with meditation?

 

[dlamberth]

How do you define meditation?

Personally, I have trouble with this kind of question. At the same time I understand why it's asked. People what to know. It's an honest question to be asking. I think the reason why I have trouble with it is that it's one of those experiences that I don't believe can be adequately defined. I see meditation as something a person does. We can study theta waves, different brain and body measurements and definitions (all very interesting) but with out actually experiencing meditation the person doing the research still would not know what meditation is.

 

[cloudyday2]

Personally, I have trouble with this kind of question. At the same time I understand why it's asked. People what to know. It's an honest question to be asking. I think the reason why I have trouble with it is that it's one of those experiences that I don't believe can be adequately defined. I see meditation as something a person does. We can study theta waves, different brain and body measurements and definitions (all very interesting) but with out actually experiencing meditation the person doing the research still would not know what meditation is.

The reason most ask (I think) is that they are not certain if they are getting there. It isn't idle curiosity. You need some idea about "there" to guide your practice. Check my post #82. Is that meditation? Is it trance? Is it both?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

The theta waves are common to both trance and Buddhist meditation. Of course @Quid est Veritas? mentioned earlier that the EEG is a course measure of brain state.

How do you define meditation?

For me theta is a non cognitive creative state. It's the dream state when we sleep also, thus we create dreams but we are non cognitive. To my mind the Buddhist as an example (or any meditator for that matter) can or does go to the delta state which is just pure consciousness, no experienced data as such to assess back in a fully waking state. Meditation is an altered state, altered from beta, but it can give you many different different experiences depending on who you are.

 

[dlamberth]

The reason most ask (I think) is that they are not certain if they are getting there. It isn't idle curiosity. You need some idea about "there" to guide your practice. Check my post #82. Is that meditation? Is it trance? Is it both?

I like the TheOldWays definition: "anything that limits your internal monologue". I'm sorry I can't help much more that that. Only you can look into yourself to see what your internal monologue is like.

 

[cloudyday2]

For me theta is a non cognitive creative state. It's the dream state when we sleep also, thus we create dreams but we are non cognitive. To my mind the Buddhist as an example (or any meditator for that matter) can or does go to the delta state which is just pure consciousness, no experienced data as such to assess back in a fully waking state. Meditation is an altered state, altered from beta, but it can give you many different different experiences depending on who you are.

Here are a couple of scientific studies of people who meditate. I can't follow all of the jargon, but it seems that gamma is the most significant and alpha comes second. It also seems that different forms of meditation cause different brain patterns. The second article contrasts TM meditation with compassion meditation. There are also changes in the parts of the brain that generate these frequencies.
Buddha's Brain: Neuroplasticity and Meditation
Studies of Advanced Stages of Meditation in the Tibetan Buddhist and Vedic Traditions. I: A Comparison of General Changes

 

[ananda]

When I feel that I am in a trance state, I become very aware and interested while also being very panoramic and passive. I'm somewhat artistically inclined, so I begin to notice every detail around me simultaneously. It's a panoramic view but also extremely detailed as though the normal noise-filtering algorithms in my brain are turned-off. I'm very absorbed in looking and listening without daring to move and disturb the state. There aren't a lot of thoughts about myself, because I am focused on my surroundings.

How does that compare with meditation?

Here are some concise definitions/guidelines/explanations regarding the various stages of Buddhist samatha (tranquility) meditation, from our early scriptures. It is summarized: "Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention."

We also practice vipassana meditation where we observe & investigate Reality itself - usually after a period of samatha.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Here are a couple of scientific studies of people who meditate. I can't follow all of the jargon, but it seems that gamma is the most significant and alpha comes second. It also seems that different forms of meditation cause different brain patterns. The second article contrasts TM meditation with compassion meditation. There are also changes in the parts of the brain that generate these frequencies.
Buddha's Brain: Neuroplasticity and Meditation
Studies of Advanced Stages of Meditation in the Tibetan Buddhist and Vedic Traditions. I: A Comparison of General Changes

All the brain wave states are significant.
As far as my limited understanding goes (I speak mostly from experience rather than textual/scientific knowledge) beta and gamma are active waking states, gamma being activity that you love, like being in the zone. Alpha is a normal waking state, but less invested in, in that busy active environments stimulate or make us use beta much more than we would or perhaps should, its overused, and that alpha is intuitive and relaxing. When people are amongst nature they switch to alpha quite easily. The movement to alpha is meditative, it's also a slight loss of our attachment to self. Theta much more so. When we dream in theta we still identify as being in a dream, we are a self, an 'I' but much less so, and when we are awake and in theta we are more the observer in whatever unfolds, but often the happenings are associated with who we are as a person or our psyche. The reason why I said delta was important was because there's a total loss of self, no sense of self exists in this state and I believe this to be the platform to create more effectively in all the other states. In Hinduism there's a term Satchitananda...which to my mind is reflective of meditation in a delta state.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here are some concise definitions/guidelines/explanations regarding the various stages of Buddhist samatha (tranquility) meditation, from our early scriptures. It is summarized: "Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention."

We also practice vipassana meditation where we observe & investigate Reality itself - usually after a period of samatha.

To be honest the link didn't make much sense to me. I don't know anything about the powdered soap that is uses as analogy and there seems to be a lot of Buddhist jargon. It's not big deal though.

 

[ananda]

To be honest the link didn't make much sense to me. I don't know anything about the powdered soap that is uses as analogy and there seems to be a lot of Buddhist jargon. It's not big deal though.

No worries, it took me a long time to realize what he meant, after cross-referencing with other texts, and from my own experience.

If you're interested, here's a break down of what he considers the first stage of meditation (jhana):

• "There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities": The preliminaries for successful meditation requires two foundational exercises: 1. We withdraw from sensuality (mentally & physically isolating one's self from the coarser five material senses, e.g. locate ourselves in a dark, quiet area & balance our bodies), and 2. we withdraw from unskillful qualities (we master the skillful qualities, e.g. by accomplishing the first seven parts of the Eightfold Path). Mastering these two preliminaries allows us to easily enter into the first jhana.
  
• "— enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal ... He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." As we focus on our object of concentration, we eventually automatically begin to feel a sense of rapture and pleasure; we mentally expand those feelings to fill the whole body. This is like moisture completely permeating all parts of a ball of powder, turning it dough-like.
  
• "accompanied by directed thought and evaluation" - Thoughts are still present during this stage of meditation.

Second jhana is marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the first jhana - that of "directed thoughts & evaluations" - which leaves behind only feelings of "rapture and pleasure".

Third jhana is said to be marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the second jhana - that of feelings of "rapture" - leaving behind only feelings of equanimous "pleasure".

Finally, the fourth jhana is said to be marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the third jhana - that of feelings of "pleasure" - leaving only "equanimity". This stage supposedly reveals the pure, bright awareness - this is said to be required for any further progress along the Buddha's Path, for supernormal powers, etc.

 

[cloudyday2]

No worries, it took me a long time to realize what he meant, after cross-referencing with other texts, and from my own experience.

If you're interested, here's a break down of what he considers the first stage of meditation (jhana):

• "There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities": The preliminaries for successful meditation requires two foundational exercises: 1. We withdraw from sensuality (mentally & physically isolating one's self from the coarser five material senses, e.g. locate ourselves in a dark, quiet area & balance our bodies), and 2. we withdraw from unskillful qualities (we master the skillful qualities, e.g. by accomplishing the first seven parts of the Eightfold Path). Mastering these two preliminaries allows us to easily enter into the first jhana.
  
• "— enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal ... He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." As we focus on our object of concentration, we eventually automatically begin to feel a sense of rapture and pleasure; we mentally expand those feelings to fill the whole body. This is like moisture completely permeating all parts of a ball of powder, turning it dough-like.
  
• "accompanied by directed thought and evaluation" - Thoughts are still present during this stage of meditation.

Second jhana is marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the first jhana - that of "directed thoughts & evaluations" - which leaves behind only feelings of "rapture and pleasure".

Third jhana is said to be marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the second jhana - that of feelings of "rapture" - leaving behind only feelings of equanimous "pleasure".

Finally, the fourth jhana is said to be marked by discarding the next-coarsest sense still found in the third jhana - that of feelings of "pleasure" - leaving only "equanimity". This stage supposedly reveals the pure, bright awareness - this is said to be required for any further progress along the Buddha's Path, for supernormal powers, etc.

o.k. I read something similar to that in a summary of Buddhism ("a very short introduction to Buddhism" I believe).

I think I experience the first jhana after staring at a candle for an hour, but I'm not sure though.

 

[ananda]

o.k. I read something similar to that in a summary of Buddhism ("a very short introduction to Buddhism" I believe).

I think I experience the first jhana after staring at a candle for an hour, but I'm not sure though.

Perhaps so ... did you experience an electrifying sense of rapture and pleasure?

 

[cloudyday2]

Perhaps so ... did you experience an electrifying sense of rapture and pleasure?

Yes, it was a state change in my brain that felt so exciting and pleasant that I didn't want it to end, but it seemed to dissipate after 30 minutes. It probably took me an hour to get to that state and then I maintained it for half an hour at most. The first time this happened I also noticed feeling not quite myself for an hour or so. I felt guilty because it seemed that I was going somewhere mentally that I didn't belong. When I listened to music, I noticed details in the sounds that I normally don't notice. I played with my cat using a toy and I felt like I was detached and watching myself play with my cat. Somebody on another forum said that I had overexerted my brain and that I also exited the meditative state too abruptly.

I haven't been able to reproduce that experience since. It's similar but not as intense. Maybe it's not a surprise now, so it seems more "ho hum". I don't meditate much either. Maybe once a year. LOL

 

[ananda]

Yes, it was a state change in my brain that felt so exciting and pleasant that I didn't want it to end, but it seemed to dissipate after 30 minutes. It probably took me an hour to get to that state and then I maintained it for half an hour at most. The first time this happened I also noticed feeling not quite myself for an hour or so. I felt guilty because it seemed that I was going somewhere mentally that I didn't belong. When I listened to music, I noticed details in the sounds that I normally don't notice. I played with my cat using a toy and I felt like I was detached and watching myself play with my cat. Somebody on another forum said that I had overexerted my brain and that I also exited the meditative state too abruptly.

I haven't been able to reproduce that experience since. It's similar but not as intense. Maybe it's not a surprise now, so it seems more "ho hum". I don't meditate much either. Maybe once a year. LOL

Thanks for sharing! Yes, the first jhana is an extremely pleasurable state to dwell in. I also notice a great increase in the sharpness of my attention and an emphasis in being in my higher consciousness (as opposed to the lower mind), for quite a while after.

 

[cloudyday2]

@ananda , I guess we got on this topic, because I saw similarities between the shamanic drumming and meditation that others did not see. After listening to the shamanic drumming posted by @TheOldWays , I happened to sit down in a darkened room to think, and I suddenly realized that I was partially in that beginning state of meditation entirely by accident. I stared at the wall and noticed all kinds of beautiful shadows in the darkness spreading in a panorama. Then I decided to try staring at a candle to see if I could intensify the state. That's when I started feeling that the candle was swinging around erratically on its own, and then I noticed rapid alternation of concentration from my left eye to my right eye so that the candle was blinking back and forth. I tend to get paranoid due to my Christian upbringing, so it bothered me. Also feeling that I saw this spirit animal's shadow in my room was part of it. Some data is all FWIW (Of course it was all my imagination. I know that.)

 

[cloudyday2]

Just listening to this song and I noticed that it might have the theta frequency: