Indoctrination and Brainwashing?

[Avonia]

I really dislike the "prosperity gospel", if that is what you are alluding to.

There is an article in the December issue of "The Atlantic" magazine called "Did Christianity Cause the Crash" - written by Hanna Rosin.

Here's a blurb:

"America's mainstream religious determinations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated--one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it's still going strong."

I thought you would be interested - given your comment.

 

[ricker]

There is an article in the December issue of "The Atlantic" magazine called "Did Christianity Cause the Crash" - written by Hanna Rosin.

Here's a blurb:

"America's mainstream religious determinations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated--one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it's still going strong."

I thought you would be interested - given your comment.

Thanks, I had never thought of that angle. Working hard and saving are certainly not bad things, but Osteen and others of his ilk really bother me.


What was Jesus's example and what did He say in this regard?


20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.



I guess I am getting away from the OP. Sorry. It's the easiest thing in the world to criticize others. Human nature makes it much harder to build up others in Christ.

 

[StormyOne]

Thanks, I had never thought of that angle. Working hard and saving are certainly not bad things, but Osteen and others of his ilk really bother me.


What was Jesus's example and what did He say in this regard?


20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.



I guess I am getting away from the OP. Sorry. It's the easiest thing in the world to criticize others. Human nature makes it much harder to build up others in Christ.

I agree Ricker but you have hit on another point which is for some christians nowadays the "proof" that they are in God's will and are legitimate christians is based on what they have materially.... So the more stuff, allegedly the more favored by God they are... that mindset is even showing up in adventist churches, though in a sense it's always been there but in the form of "pay your tithes and God will richly bless you...."

I agree with you, the prosperity message is wrong...

 

[Joe67]

Your response is interesting. perhaps a little bit cryptic to me.



Interesting. I had never thought of who the instrument leading the 12 to Egypt, and who led Judah to Babylon. Hebrews 4 speaks of Joshua and rest. Interesting prophesy in Psalms 95.




I am a little dense and unlearned, I guess. What is the Jeremiah message you are speaking of? Coming back to God in general? What do you believe Babylon today is? Secularism?






Again a nice insight new to me. Thank you. I really dislike the "prosperity gospel", if that is what you are alluding to.

Please tell me if I've missed your point on things.

ricker,

I believe the Lord has given us some communication.

Joseph, the man of prosperity, led them into slavery.

Jeremiah, who they considered a traitor led them into the fulfillment of God's purpose as a witness among the nations.

God's true sabbath rest is when we hear his voice. It is "today" when he speaks to our hearts and minds, as he promised. This was how Jesus was raised from the tomb. "...This day I have begotten you."

The "captivity" in "Babylon" was a time of comfort, learning and prosperity. The "Jews" were mixed among the nations. They became inclusive by default/unwillingly.

Joe

 

[ricker]

ricker,

I believe the Lord has given us some communication.

Joseph, the man of prosperity, led them into slavery.

Jeremiah, who they considered a traitor led them into the fulfillment of God's purpose as a witness among the nations.

God's true sabbath rest is when we hear his voice. It is "today" when he speaks to our hearts and minds, as he promised. This was how Jesus was raised from the tomb. "...This day I have begotten you."

The "captivity" in "Babylon" was a time of comfort, learning and prosperity. The "Jews" were mixed among the nations. They became inclusive by default/unwillingly.

Joe

God surely does work in mysterious ways!

Thanks, I do really like your insights. They add a definite new dimension for me to old stories. Not sure how they relate to the OP, but I do appreciate them!

 

[Sophia7]

The terms “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” may sound strong – but my experience suggests that is what sometimes happens within the church.

During my first few months of involvement with the SDA Church I began to hear various teachings that were new to me. They primarily concerned the Catholic Church and a global Sunday Law. I was (and still am) highly sceptical of these teachings, but there was an intermediate period in my journey which is of particular interest.

The psychology behind the “it’s us against the rest of the world” victim mentality was very clear to me from the outset. I thought it acted as a strong enabler for a tight knit group that was suspicious of outside or unapproved ideas. Furthermore, I simply couldn’t see any evidence that the Catholic Church or other denomination actually meant the SDA Church any harm (other than the “evidence” that emerged from the particular interpretation of biblical passages within the SDA Church). There was a fatalistic attitude, where no dialogue with the supposed enemy took place. I once asked whether any senior figures from the SDA church had ever checked the position officially with the organisations who the allegations had been made against. The response was scathing, and it told me all I needed to know.

I read and heard these teachings often, from many different sources. This was both in the course of official church activities, and also in casual conversations. My better judgement was telling me not to believe it, but subliminally I knew I was absorbing the doctrine and I could feel myself beginning to believe it, even though I actually didn’t.

It was at this point that I began to question both the message and the methods used to perpetuate it. From then on I began to disengage from the teaching process within the church.

Two things worried me about this whole experience.

First – the fact that a person can begin to believe something by hearing it a lot, even if they are sceptical on one level. The obvious parallel is the propaganda used by totalitarian regimes – it’s how in 1930s Germany many people who were otherwise decent normal individuals learned to despise those of a different race, religion, political persuasion etc.

I don't believe that the Nazis introduced something completely new in Germany. Anti-Semitism was already prevalent, and it was intensified by Hitler's propaganda. Hitler was a manipulator; he knew how to twist people's already existing prejudices to his advantage. However, I agree that a person can begin to believe something by hearing it a lot--not always, but it can happen.

Second – I first heard these views as an adult, I knew what was happening and the psychological reasoning behind it, and I was trying not to let it erode my critical faculty. Yet I was still getting sucked into the doctrine. If this was happening to an adult who was keeping a guard up, what hope would a person ever have of seeing the doctrine and methods for what they are if there is continual exposure to it from childhood?

I think that it depends largely on the family. While I was indoctrinated into some Adventist beliefs--especially the Sabbath, the state of the dead, and clean and unclean meats--during my childhood, my family was not very traditional in many ways. My parents didn't care about Ellen White, and I never even read any of her books until I went to an Adventist college. My family wasn't adherent to many Adventist lifestyle standards, such as prohibitions against caffeine, jewelry, movie theaters, going out to eat on Sabbath, etc. I didn't hear much about the IJ as a child, other than in a few Revelation Seminars. I did hear a few stories about Ellen White while I was attending Adventist elementary schools for a couple of years, but Adventist history was mostly foreign to me until I studied it later on my own. And I wasn't in an Adventist-ghetto type of environment, with only Adventist friends and influences, so I wasn't isolated from people who believed differently than I did. I went to public schools most of the time, so I avoided a lot of the indoctrination that occurs in SDA schools.

Also, my dad encouraged critical thinking (sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a negative way). He used to be a Lutheran and joined the SDA Church when I was very young, but he is most definitely not a conservative Adventist and has never completely agreed with everything that Adventism teaches. Indoctrination didn't seem to work on him too well.

I think that my more cultural than doctrinal Adventist upbringing actually made me less inclined to leave Adventism when I started questioning the IJ and EGW than I would have been if I had started out more traditional in my outlook. I was used to some things not making sense, and I was used to disagreeing with some things, but I considered them minor issues until I came to disagree with so many things that I finally decided not to call myself an Adventist anymore. That was a very hard choice for me, though--one that I deliberated on for many months--not something that I saw in black-and-white terms. In real life--at least in my life--everyone doesn't fit neatly into a box labeled "Traditional Adventists" or "Progressive Adventists" or "Former Adventists."

 

[Sophia7]

BigRedBus, you have raised valid points. I think there is alot of indoctrination and it starts young. In fact I believe that because the teachings are introduced to kids who have not developed critical thinking, very rarely will those kids (who grow into adults) critically examine what they were taught...

Only those who are truly curious, and who decide that maybe all that is taught is not the truth will be able to examine the teachings and reject the propaganda... Thanks for starting this thread....

Helping our kids to develop critical-thinking skills is very important. Unfortunately, critical thinking is not taught or encouraged in many Adventist homes and schools.

 

[Sophia7]

Thanks. I have been an active Lutheran for many years, but most of my family is Adventist, although living far away. I occasionally visit my local SDA church, and (suprisingly? ) have never really found any real disagreements with what has been put forth there.

Has the power really shifted? I have relatives that are light years ahead of the old dogma I was raised with, and some that seem entrenched in the White way. I really have no problem worshipping on the Sabbath.

I don't really know about Adventists being brainwashed, but, if I may be so bold, there is something about the denomination that seems to attract conspiracy theorists and such. Maybe this is less so now than 30+ years ago when I was an Adventist.

I think your observation is correct that something about Adventism attracts conspiracy theorists. I've observed it many times at prophecy seminars. Perhaps part of the reason is that the topics covered in those seminars appeal to people who seek the sensational. They are attracted by promotional materials with images of dragons and beasts, and there's also a draw in the prospect of learning things that not many other Christians (because traditionally Adventism has targeted non-SDA Christians in its evangelism) know or talk about and gaining a key to understanding biblical mysteries. Adventist evangelists are capitalizing on such interests, as Doug Batchelor explained in this interview:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Why did you choose the theme The Prophecy Code?
Well, one reason is that we're capitalizing on a heightened interest in prophecy right now. After NET '99 many Adventists wondered whether interest in Bible prophecy would wane because the millennial fever-many called it millennial madness-had dissipated. But actually the opposite has happened. Some of the most recent best-selling books have involved Bible prophecy, such as the Left Behind series, The American Prophecies, The Da Vinci Code, Beyond Iraq, The Bible Code. So we are trying to capitalize on this interest.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]But in reality there is a code in the Bible-a code of symbols. For example, a woman represents the church, a sword is the Word of God, bread is the Bible. So we're trying to help people understand that when you apply some of these symbols, they unlock Bible prophecies. Once you give people the keys to what those symbols are, prophecy starts to make sense. [/FONT]
​

 

[Sophia7]

I don't think there's any specific advance intent to brainwash or indoctrinate, but the combined effect of formal and informal interactions within an insular and sometimes overly authoritarian setting can certainly achieve the same result by accident.

On a denominational level, I think that there has been a determined effort recently to step up the indoctrination, as evidenced by things like the "Connecting with Jesus" campaign to distribute EGW's writings, the e-zine Ellen White: Visionary for Kids, and the Eager Beavers curriculum, which includes more stories about EGW than Bible stories in its lesson plan. (I don't know what the curricula for other SDA kids' programs do, but I used to be an Eager Beavers leader, and I was quite disappointed in the teacher's manual; I used Bible stories instead of the recommended EGW stories.) The younger generations of Adventists are not as connected to EGW as their parents' and grandparents' generations were, and that worries the denominational leaders.

 

[Avonia]

I think your observation is correct that something about Adventism attracts conspiracy theorists.

The more concentrated the "remnant consciousness" is, the more true this is. Because the other in us/other is on all sides - literally.

It's sort of like the person who fences off and gates their property so nobody can get in. The purpose is only validated when "people are trying to get in."

I see this played out in a similar way with the corporations I serve. "Foe mentalities." It's so interesting.

 

[Sophia7]

The more concentrated the "remnant consciousness" is, the more true this is. Because the other in us/other is on all sides - literally.

It's sort of like the person who fences off and gates their property so nobody can get in. The purpose is only validated when "people are trying to get in."

I see this played out in a similar way with the corporations I serve. "Foe mentalities." It's so interesting.

It is interesting.

 

[AzA]

It's sort of like the person who fences off and gates their property so nobody can get in. The purpose is only validated when "people are trying to get in."

One of the stories that came out of Katrina was about people in gated communities who were not all able to leave town because their electric gates had failed in the storm and they were literally locked in. A different kind of ghetto, and a prison of their own making.

There is an article in the December issue of "The Atlantic" magazine called "Did Christianity Cause the Crash" - written by Hanna Rosin...

"America's mainstream religious denominations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated--one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it's still going strong."

An interesting thing about this commentary is that it misses the variation in Christianity over the preceding 1,900 years. The Church has gone through phases where it's "in" to be rich or "in" to be secure, but it's also gone through many a phase where it's "in" to be poor and "in" to be suffering, and the theology has adjusted to match. The Via Dolorosa rituals were only tangentially about Jesus' suffering; they spoke more to ordinary people because they helped to sanctify their lived experience. The theology can spiritualize fatalism at one extreme and greed at another. Such is the nature of godtalk! It's malleable depending where we're at.

And the other point is that "reward in the hereafter" wasn't always the Jewish or Christian default position, but the blurb you quoted seems to assume it was. In other words, the 20th/21st C prosperity gospel is not as new or as aberrant as it might seem. These things come and go.

I think your observation is correct that something about Adventism attracts conspiracy theorists...Adventist evangelists are capitalizing on such interests, as Doug Batchelor explained in this interview...

Yes, i've seen this myself. Capitalizing on vulnerabilities is an accurate way to put it. But then this is what salespeople do. Find a lack, and offer to fill it.
This also explains why the church has much less success with people who either do not sense a lack or are truly doing just fine without the beasty version of the gospel.

I have learned that if you treat a thriving plant the same way that you treat a dying plant, you'll kill the thriving plant. And this is one reason I don't herd people to local evangelism efforts.

On a denominational level, I think that there has been a determined effort recently to step up the indoctrination...The younger generations of Adventists are not as connected to EGW as their parents' and grandparents' generations were, and that worries the denominational leaders.

I agree.
GYC (Generation of Youth for Christ, formerly General Youth Conference) are making great strides in this effort.

 

[Avonia]

A different kind of ghetto, and a prison of their own making.

Some of the harshest prisons are constructed with religious belief. But, until you actually walk out of the cave . . .

 

[Joe67]

Avonia,

After the cave/pit, there is the snare.

Isa 24:17-20
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. KJV

Temples of worship are built with the stones from the pit. The fear of man is a snare coming on the face of the earth.

Joe