Incest?

[lismore]

So are you saying that before moses’ time, incestuous relations didn’t cause birth defects?

hello Emmy. There seems to have been some degeneration physically of humanity. Methusaleh for example lived 969 years. After the flood lifepans seem to drop off sharply. Perhaps related to the decline in lifespan an increase in birth defects. God Bless

 

[DamianWarS]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
“And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

BUT

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

there are clear levitical laws regarding these types of relations. in 2019 we should take Pauls approach he speaks of in 1 Cor 9:22 saying "I have become all things to all people" while at the same time noting in v21 "I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law". Why do we do this? he has an answer for that too in v23... "I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings"

in practice, it means to follow the cultural customs of your mission so long as they don't violate the law of Christ, in essence, becoming salves to your mission as Paul says in v19 "I have made myself a slave to everyone". anything else pulls you away from your mission possibly disabling the gospel. Who's your mission? if you don't know then look out your window... that's your mission.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I mean how do you know that defects were only caused by mother/son incest rather than sister/brother incest. You said something about “mankind’s blood not being able to handle” it anymore.

As another said, lifespans decreased.
Men lived hundreds of years in the beginning and this declined over time.

The Bible says that the life of the flesh is in the blood. Again, Abraham and others did not contract diseases and die before the Law.
Today we know this is not the case. A person getting a sexual disease can transmit a disease by blood.

 

[☦Marius☦]

At first glance i see where you are coming from, but, i urge you to look into some commentaries and research on this passage. Even just a quick google search. Would your father curse you to God and ask him to make you a servant of a servant just for making fun of him? Very interesting stuff but beyond the point i was making. 1. I didnt ever ask if these things were wrong. And 2. Your opinion really is irrelevant, im looking for a more biblical solution rather than peoples opinions when it comes to inter family marriage.

Bro,
sometimes naked just means naked. Never once have I seen it interpreted the way you are trying to interpret it, and by church uses the original Greek translation of the OT.

 

[Yekcidmij]

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

It's still practiced throughout the world today, and especially in the very regions in view in the bible. This isn't something that only happened way back when.

Cousin marriage in the Middle East - Wikipedia

This practice not only was normal in the ancient near east, but it is still normal in the middle east today.
.

 

[Yarddog]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
“And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

BUT

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

My take on Noah.

The flood story is an allegorical story about Christians. The flood represents baptism, washing away the sin of the world. After Noah comes out of the ark he plants a vineyard, which is Jesus.

He then gets drunk on the fruit of the vine, blood of Jesus. He falls to sleep naked. Just as Adam and Eve were naked, which represents man baring all to God, Noah bares all to God after partaking in the fruit of Jesus.

When Noah's sons sees his naked they try to cover him up, just as Adam and Eve tried to cover their nakedness from God.

As Christians we should know and rejoice in our nakedness before God. We have been washed clean through our belief and are free to drink the fruit of the Lord Jesus.

 

[AlexDTX]

Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

Yes. With Adam and Noah new beginnings necessitated incestuous relations. By Moses, it was not needed, and the restriction was stated.

The problem of incest is blood lines. Incest is still quite common in European royal families and in the wealthy aristocrats of the world who want to keep the wealth in the family. For the royals, they promote the myth that they are descendants of Christ through Mary Magdalene, so it is the continuation of the "divine" bloodline.

Up until the time of Christ, genealogies were kept, first with the line of Seth, then the line of Shem, Abraham, Judah, David and his descendants because the promise of the Messiah was given to them. Thus incestuous marriages, not immediate per se, but 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cousins, were kept looking forward to the Messiah.

But the Messiah has come. Now the bloodline is passed on spiritually through the new birth. All who are born again have joined into that blood line.

So, today, there is no need for incestuous marriages. The European royals are in truth, Luciferians and believe that the new Messiah, which we call anti-christ, will come through their line, along with the wealthy aristocrats.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Yes. With Adam and Noah new beginnings necessitated incestuous relations. By Moses, it was not needed, and the restriction was stated.

The problem of incest is blood lines. Incest is still quite common in European royal families and in the wealthy aristocrats of the world who want to keep the wealth in the family. For the royals, they promote the myth that they are descendants of Christ through Mary Magdalene, so it is the continuation of the "divine" bloodline.

Up until the time of Christ, genealogies were kept, first with the line of Seth, then the line of Shem, Abraham, Judah, David and his descendants because the promise of the Messiah was given to them. Thus incestuous marriages, not immediate per se, but 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cousins, were kept looking forward to the Messiah.

But the Messiah has come. Now the bloodline is passed on spiritually through the new birth. All who are born again have joined into that blood line.

So, today, there is no need for incestuous marriages. The European royals are in truth, Luciferians and believe that the new Messiah, which we call anti-christ, will come through their line, along with the wealthy aristocrats.

Wait... what? Did I miss an important part? What’s a Luciferian? If that’s off-topic, can you start a post about Luciferianism, because I don’t know what that is but it sounds like something that should have a post. I’m guessing it has something to do with Lucifer?

 

[Sabertooth]

It is a euphemism for sexual activity.

Then why did Shem & Japheth feel the need to avert their eyes? Did they feel like they would be tempted, too?

(When I wipe my adult daughter's behind, I have to pay close attention for hygienic reasons.)

 

[Zachm531]

I disagree. Through marriage, I take my wife's nakedness personally, and anyone viewing her nudity commits an offense against me. I thought that much would be clear. Does this mean I can never personally be naked? Am I not permitted to be equally protective of my own nakedness? I would think it absurd that Noah drank wine, causing his wife's clothes to fall off (reminds me of a country music tune, but I digress). I might add that his wife was not referenced.



Yes, and it was a sin, I'm sure.



God probably did not create Adam and Eve with deleterious genes. I assume the recessive mutations came later. That being the case, marriage between near relatives earlier on was not harmful as it is now. Give it enough time, and we'll find that we can't get far enough away in our relations to prevent these kinds of problems.



No. It was part of God's design to mix and match genomes, not make carbon copies.

Ok so where do you even get this idea Bionically?

None of the people you just mentioned were Jews, nor did any Jews exist, anywhere, when those people walked the Earth.

I understand that they were not labeled Jews at that time but their faith makes them Jews looking backward in time.

The size of the population would have made it more necessary, but not more acceptable. It was the age of the human species, as a whole, that made the difference. If the Flood happened today, and our population were bottle-necked like that, now, the survivors and their offspring would probably go extinct.



We oppose it like the good citizens we are.

Again why? and where do you see Biblical support for this?

 

[AlexDTX]

Wait... what? Did I miss an important part? What’s a Luciferian? If that’s off-topic, can you start a post about Luciferianism, because I don’t know what that is but it sounds like something that should have a post. I’m guessing it has something to do with Lucifer?

It is off topic, but one reason the royals and wealthy incestuously intermarry. Luciferian and Satanism are similar but different by degree. Luciferians are people who worship Lucifer and use satanic ritual abuse and mind control to keep the families under Lucifer. This is why Lucifer has maintained family lines that worship him for generations. It is through the Luciferians that the blood line for the anti-christ will come, but they think is the real "savior" of the world. Luciferians look down on Satanists who are not in the blood line.

Satanists are all those who want power to do selfish desires. As Anton LeVey had said, Do what thou wilt. These people include witches, warlocks, sorcerers, and the like. They are not part of the global plan for the end time world government. They are useful idiots for the Luciferians.

But, this is off topic, so we should not pursue it in this thread.

 

[Zachm531]

Bro,
sometimes naked just means naked. Never once have I seen it interpreted the way you are trying to interpret it, and by church uses the original Greek translation of the OT.

Im interpreting it the way that Leviticus describes it.

 

[Zachm531]

It is off topic, but one reason the royals and wealthy incestuously intermarry. Luciferian and Satanism are similar but different by degree. Luciferians are people who worship Lucifer and use satanic ritual abuse and mind control to keep the families under Lucifer. This is why Lucifer has maintained family lines that worship him for generations. It is through the Luciferians that the blood line for the anti-christ will come, but they think is the real "savior" of the world. Luciferians look down on Satanists who are not in the blood line.

Satanists are all those who want power to do selfish desires. As Anton LeVey had said, Do what thou wilt. These people include witches, warlocks, sorcerers, and the like. They are not part of the global plan for the end time world government. They are useful idiots for the Luciferians.
I thought that was a Crowley quote?
But, this is off topic, so we should not pursue it in this thread.

 

[AlexDTX]

@Zachm531
"I thought that was a Crowley quote?
But, this is off topic, so we should not pursue it in this thread."
Could be. You might be right.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

All you need to do is read up on Fundamentalist Mormonism who practice marriage between cousins and see it causes genetic disease. So I would say, avoid at all cost.
Polygamist community faces rare genetic disorder - Reuters

 

[Zachm531]

All you need to do is read up on Fundamentalist Mormonism who practice marriage between cousins and see it causes genetic disease. So I would say, avoid at all cost.
Polygamist community faces rare genetic disorder - Reuters

Wow!

 

[ViaCrucis]

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

I don't think it's any of those reasons. I think the reason we see cousin-marriage in the Bible is because it wasn't considered incest in ancient bronze age near eastern societies. Different cultures have different taboos. In the modern West relations between first cousins is regarded as incestuous (and, frankly, I agree, but then that's my Western bias). That's not universal in modern societies though. There are plenty of cultures today which doesn't regard relations between first cousins to be incestuous. In fact I think many of us in the West would go further, that second cousins are still incestuous.

So this is simply representative of the differences in cultures. In this case there really isn't some objective right or wrong, just differences. I think it's gross, because I'm a westerner living in a culture which regards first cousin relations to be gross and incestuous. The ancient Hebrews, like most ancient near eastern cultures of the time, didn't have that same taboo, and didn't regard it as incestuous.

Sometimes cultural differences are just cultural differences.

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

It's a matter of cultural taboo, not Divine Commandment. I think there's sufficient enough reason to oppose immediate family blood relations as unacceptable, even God in the Torah forbade these sorts of relations to Israel. However a Christian living in a culture which doesn't perceive cousin-cousin coupling as incestuous isn't violating Divine Law; likewise there's no reason to believe that as a Christian living in the United States that I should regard cousin-cousin coupling as anything other than icky. Both are valid within their respective cultures.

So there isn't going to be some definitive Christian position on the subject, in fact there can't be. These are subjective things which are the properties of differences among world cultures. In East Asian cultures it would be a sign of disrespect not to bow (to varying degrees depending on circumstances), however here in the United States bowing isn't part of the culture. Is it right or wrong to bow? Well, neither, these are just cultural differences.

Sometimes there isn't an objective right or wrong. Sometimes things are just different.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

All you need to do is read up on Fundamentalist Mormonism who practice marriage between cousins and see it causes genetic disease. So I would say, avoid at all cost.
Polygamist community faces rare genetic disorder - Reuters

That gets us to a different sort of conversation beyond a moral dimension though. It's like we know that living entirely off of fast food is really bad for us in terms of health--but it's not a moral issue in terms of there being some divinely sanctioned dietary lifestyle for people of faith (there's not). As such what we eat is merely a matter of conscientious and personal choices.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AlexDTX]

Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)

I took the time to read the article that you linked to another person later on. I found the article outstanding. It cultural issue of that era to claim head of dynasty by having intercourse with the current head's spouse and concubines explains so much.

I shared highlights with my wife and that sparked a long discussion on the issue of incest. She believes, and I agree with her, that from Adam the knowledge that incest was wrong was in the heart of everyone. Of course, of necessity, God had to suppress that knowledge in the beginning so the Earth could be populated. Likewise after the Flood the necessity came again.

Since at that time, marrying and procreating with relatives was a natural behavior with no taboo, we came to the conclusion that the idea of establishing the head of a dynasty was the result of the unrighteous line. We could not imagine that Seth, the 3rd son of Adam and Eve would sleep with Eve to establish a dynasty of a righteous line. It seems more likely that Cain's son, Enoch (or one of his sons) began such a vile practice. Clearly it had to begin before the Flood since it was known after the Flood by Ham and the wrongness of such action was understood by his brothers Shem and Japheth. Looking at Cain's line we see the seeds of the world had begun with his grandson, Lamech, who took 2 wives and told them he had slain a man and if Cain was avenged sevenfold he would be avenged seventy and sevenfold. Truly misunderstood what God did with Cain, and perverted this even more so.

Regarding Lot's daughters, we have no idea what the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah looked like. From their point of view, they probably truly believed the world had come to an end and that it was up to them to repopulate the world. No doubt their perspective had been affected by the perverse lives of their former neighbors.

Anyway, just want to thank you for linking to that article. It opened our eyes and gave us better understanding of the story, including why Reuben slept with Bilhah and Absalom slept with David's wives and concubines. Even the story of Abishag lying with David in his old age.

 

[Zachm531]

I took the time to read the article that you linked to another person later on. I found the article outstanding. It cultural issue of that era to claim head of dynasty by having intercourse with the current head's spouse and concubines explains so much.

I shared highlights with my wife and that sparked a long discussion on the issue of incest. She believes, and I agree with her, that from Adam the knowledge that incest was wrong was in the heart of everyone. Of course, of necessity, God had to suppress that knowledge in the beginning so the Earth could be populated. Likewise after the Flood the necessity came again.

Since at that time, marrying and procreating with relatives was a natural behavior with no taboo, we came to the conclusion that the idea of establishing the head of a dynasty was the result of the unrighteous line. We could not imagine that Seth, the 3rd son of Adam and Eve would sleep with Eve to establish a dynasty of a righteous line. It seems more likely that Cain's son, Enoch (or one of his sons) began such a vile practice. Clearly it had to begin before the Flood since it was known after the Flood by Ham and the wrongness of such action was understood by his brothers Shem and Japheth. Looking at Cain's line we see the seeds of the world had begun with his grandson, Lamech, who took 2 wives and told them he had slain a man and if Cain was avenged sevenfold he would be avenged seventy and sevenfold. Truly misunderstood what God did with Cain, and perverted this even more so.

Regarding Lot's daughters, we have no idea what the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah looked like. From their point of view, they probably truly believed the world had come to an end and that it was up to them to repopulate the world. No doubt their perspective had been affected by the perverse lives of their former neighbors.

Anyway, just want to thank you for linking to that article. It opened our eyes and gave us better understanding of the story, including why Reuben slept with Bilhah and Absalom slept with David's wives and concubines. Even the story of Abishag lying with David in his old age.

I took the time to read the article that you linked to another person later on. I found the article outstanding. It cultural issue of that era to claim head of dynasty by having intercourse with the current head's spouse and concubines explains so much.

I shared highlights with my wife and that sparked a long discussion on the issue of incest. She believes, and I agree with her, that from Adam the knowledge that incest was wrong was in the heart of everyone. Of course, of necessity, God had to suppress that knowledge in the beginning so the Earth could be populated. Likewise after the Flood the necessity came again.

Since at that time, marrying and procreating with relatives was a natural behavior with no taboo, we came to the conclusion that the idea of establishing the head of a dynasty was the result of the unrighteous line. We could not imagine that Seth, the 3rd son of Adam and Eve would sleep with Eve to establish a dynasty of a righteous line. It seems more likely that Cain's son, Enoch (or one of his sons) began such a vile practice. Clearly it had to begin before the Flood since it was known after the Flood by Ham and the wrongness of such action was understood by his brothers Shem and Japheth. Looking at Cain's line we see the seeds of the world had begun with his grandson, Lamech, who took 2 wives and told them he had slain a man and if Cain was avenged sevenfold he would be avenged seventy and sevenfold. Truly misunderstood what God did with Cain, and perverted this even more so.

Regarding Lot's daughters, we have no idea what the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah looked like. From their point of view, they probably truly believed the world had come to an end and that it was up to them to repopulate the world. No doubt their perspective had been affected by the perverse lives of their former neighbors.

Anyway, just want to thank you for linking to that article. It opened our eyes and gave us better understanding of the story, including why Reuben slept with Bilhah and Absalom slept with David's wives and concubines. Even the story of Abishag lying with David in his old age.

I am glad that I was able to get your mind moving a bit and spark up a conversation between you and your spouse. I would love to take credit for linking that specific article but it actually was not me who linked it. Have a blessed day!