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Featured Incest?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Zachm531, Sep 11, 2019 at 10:45 PM.

  1. Zachm531

    Zachm531 New Member

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    This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Ham apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
    “And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
    ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
    Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
    “And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
    ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
    “Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
    ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
    And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

    BUT

    What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

    So I guess my question for you guys is this:
    Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
    Or
    Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
    Or
    Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

    And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 5:05 PM
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  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    The Genesis account is pretty unambiguous (but it and the passage in Leviticus, below, raises some interesting questions about care-giving).

    "Then [Noah] drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness." Genesis 9:21-23 NKJV

    Half-siblings, cousins, etc. marrying is just a fact in the Bible which God did not forbid. There is a list of prohibited marriages/sexual relationships in Leviticus 18:6-18. In the case of half-siblings, it seems to be saying that sharing a household does not grant sexual license.

    David's daughter, Tamar, told her half-brother, Amnon, when he raped her,

    “No, my brother, do not force me, for no such thing should be done in Israel. Do not do this disgraceful thing! And I, where could I take my shame? And as for you, you would be like one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you.” 2 Samuel 13:12-13 NKJV

    It was okay to be with him, as long as he married her, first.
     
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  3. Zachm531

    Zachm531 New Member

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    Seems strange for her to say that after reading Lev.
    “The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.”
    ‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭18:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    But then again it seems that “uncovering someone's nakedness” is different than a marriage? Correct?
     
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    No, he was just making fun of his father who was acting like a fool because he was drunk. Nothing about Noah's wife is in that passage.
    First cousins wasn't incest according to Leviticus 18. Society considers it to be incest now. I'm not going to consider either of them "wrong" in this matter.
     
  5. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    The context seems to be just seeing or looking at them naked, but it would include everything south of that, including marriage.

    It is really troubling as a care-giver, because I see (and must see) everything...! I still believe that there is a context where that is acceptable. If Shem & Japheth were care-givers by today's standards, they would have just put a blanket on Dad and not given it a second thought. The only interpretation that makes any sense is that Ham must have been ogling his father...? [​IMG]
     
  6. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    That doesn't explain why Shem & Japheth felt the need to walk backwards. As a care-giver, I have never seen a good Biblical resolution for this.
     
  7. Zachm531

    Zachm531 New Member

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    At first glance i see where you are coming from, but, i urge you to look into some commentaries and research on this passage. Even just a quick google search. Would your father curse you to God and ask him to make you a servant of a servant just for making fun of him? Very interesting stuff but beyond the point i was making. 1. I didnt ever ask if these things were wrong. And 2. Your opinion really is irrelevant, im looking for a more biblical solution rather than peoples opinions when it comes to inter family marriage.
     
  8. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Leviticus is the Biblical solution (and obeying the laws of the land [Romans 13] that don't conflict with serving God).
     
  9. Zachm531

    Zachm531 New Member

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    Interesting. Well back to the original questions, do you see anywhere that the Bible supports or even promotes inter family marriage OVER outter family? I have always wondered if that was part of Gods design for Israel. Even from Adam and Eve “behold she is my flesh” almost points to marrying someone who is within your family. Maybe im digging to deep into the text. I know that just because it’s written in the Bible, doesnt mean its ordained by God. But, it appears an awful lot in scripture.
     
  10. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    No. I think that choices were limited because their mobility was limited.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 12:11 AM
  11. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Different standards of modesty. Perhaps something about their naked father was unintentionally funny, and they didn't want to commit the same sin.
    I have, actually.
    Genesis 9 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
    Genesis 9:21 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
    Genesis 9:22 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
    Genesis 9:23 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
    That's not your business.

    By posting a public thread, you invited my opinion, and I also posted the Biblical reference that forms my opinion. Take it or leave it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 12:20 AM
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  12. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    But Leviticus 18 doesn't grant that qualifier...
     
  13. Kate30

    Kate30 Member

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    It’s seems to have been a recurring practice amongst all nations throughout ancient times and even up to our present time. With Lots daughters it was all about preservation of their heritage or clan if you like. To them it was very important. You could say the same of many ruling dynasty’s all the way from Egypt up unto the royal dynasty’s of Europe. Bloodlines were very important in retaining power geographically, politically and also a connection the spiritual realm. The purpose of incestuous relationships has been used for both good and evil. It’s interesting what Sabertooth did mention about Tamar that a incestous marriage was not a problem but only with what took place beforehand that brought the shame and dishonour. Zachm I’m not sure about the incest you mentioned of Ham with his mother. You may have to elevate on that. I think the only other interpretations I have read is that he may have sodomised his father. But most of what I have read points to Ham not being blessed because he mocked his fathers nakedness to others, instead of showing the reverence that a fatherly figure fully deserves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 7:18 AM
  14. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    "You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness." - Lev 18:7

    Problem with transposing this onto Gen 9 is that the mother's nakedness is mentioned nowhere.
     
  15. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    I think the genetic abnormalities we’ve seen in royalty (namely the Habsburg ) and Amish say otherwise. If it was God’s intention for us to intermarry within our families we wouldn’t be subject to harm (physical, mental, and emotional) for doing so.

    Modern day royals go outside of their gene pool for this reason to avoid maladies associated with inbreeding.
     
  16. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    I was not supporting transposition. The phrase "it is your father’s nakedness" is from #3 (verse 8), below, and refers to one's father's other wife [step-mom?], not their own mother #2 (verse 7b). Noah had only one surviving wife, the mother [#2] of Ham, Shem & Japheth, so that phrase cannot be applied to Genesis 9.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
    "None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him, to uncover his nakedness: I am the Lord.
    1. 7 The nakedness of your father or
    2. the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    3. 8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness.
    4. 9 The nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or
    5. the daughter of your mother, whether born at home or elsewhere, their nakedness you shall not uncover.
    6. 10 The nakedness of your son’s daughter or
    7. your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for theirs is your own nakedness.
    8. 11 The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, begotten by your father—she is your sister—you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    9. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is near of kin to your father.
    10. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is near of kin to your mother.
    11. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother.
    12. You shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.
    13. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law—she is your son’s wife—you shall not uncover her nakedness.
    14. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness.
    15. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter,
    16. nor shall you take her son’s daughter or
    17. her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness.
    18. 18 Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive." Leviticus 18:6-18 NKJV
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 1:31 AM
  17. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    I always just chalk it up to we started with Adam and Eve. So obviously there wasn't much choice in who to be with and have babies with. To some degree incest was a common thing early one given there weren't many people to choose from as time went on. Is it wrong? Well we know incest is wrong. However I believe God was fine with it at first given there was no other choice. Today though there is no need for it.

    That aside you can see the side effects of to much interbreeding from incest in "royalty" countries where they often would marry other family members to keep the royal family "pure" and going.
     
  18. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    The reason why you find marriages like that that we would consider as incest today is because that was ancient Near Eastern culture.
     
  19. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    Which early years? The first Jew on Abraham by the time of the Exodus you have substantial amount of Jews. And even with the increased popular the Torah still doesn’t prohibit incest on certain levels (marrying your first cousin).
     
  20. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    OK, so if it's not their mother and not their stepmother (both of which you said you agree with if I'm understanding you correctly), it must be their father.

    Interesting that Rabbinical literature based on that event doesn't mention the mother either. Since they will likely know the Hebrew better than many Gentile commentators, I believe that is significant. Source: HAM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
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