Incest?

[Zachm531]

"You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness." - Lev 18:7

Problem with transposing this onto Gen 9 is that the mother's nakedness is mentioned nowhere.

It seems as if God gave us a definition of what a “Fathers nakedness” is and that is the fathers wife’s “nakedness”. So if you apply that definition to earlier stories it gives clarity to what actually was happening. Canan and his bloodline were cursed, he must have done something more than making fun of Noah for being naked. And Leviticus explains to us what exactly it was.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
“And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

BUT

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

Unfortunately I agree that Ham had intimate relations with his own mother (i.e. Noah's wife).

I created a thread on this a while back that you may find eye opening.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

As for your other questions:

Well, sleeping with one's parents was never acceptable at any point in time.
At one point in time, sleeping with one's brothers and sisters was allowed so as to populate the planet. But after a time, it was no longer needed and sin had degenerated mankind whereby his blood could no longer handle inter-family relations anymore. So then laws on incest were then created in the Law of Moses because mankind's blood could no longer handle intimate relations between those who are next of kin (Brothers, sisters, and cousins, etc.). God's ideal view is the traditional family of today. God is never against true family; And incest (of any kind) is now forbidden.

 

[BobRyan]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

No mention of his mother.
No mention of sex.

I would not dismiss those two details if I were you.

Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.

True and that was incest it was bad - they gave birth to nations of idolaters.

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

true.

parent child incest is never approved in any age.

BUT What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

The problem with incest is biology. Closely related individuals share the same family genome defects and humanity engages in haploid cell meiosis to reproduce and create diploid cells as a result of meiosis.

"humans, the haploid cells are used only for the sex cells for reproduction, while the rest of the cells are diploid. Another difference between haploid and diploid cells is how they reproduce. Haploid cells are reproduced using meiosis, while diploid cells go through mitosis."

That means our "defects" are not supposed to "line up" between mother and father for the child so that the child has no birth defects. We need matching defects to express the defect in phenotype. That "match up" is much more likely if the defect combination is coming from close relatives.

So now lets go back to Adam and Eve. no defects at all in their genetic code. their children could marry each other without any defects passed on to their offspring.

But 2500 years later a lot of genetic defects would have surfaced. It would be very dangerous for siblings to marry, and over time it would become dangerous for cousins to marry .. etc.

 

[renniks]

That doesn't explain why Shem & Japheth felt the need to walk backwards. As a care-giver, I have never seen a good Biblical resolution for this.

I always thought it wasn't just the nakedness. It was that they made fun of him. And perhaps he was in this state, only because he didn't realize that fermented drink would cause drunkenness.

 

[Sketcher]

It seems as if God gave us a definition of what a “Fathers nakedness” is and that is the fathers wife’s “nakedness”. So if you apply that definition to earlier stories it gives clarity to what actually was happening. Canan and his bloodline were cursed, he must have done something more than making fun of Noah for being naked. And Leviticus explains to us what exactly it was.

Again, the mother's nakedness or the stepmother's nakedness also referred to as her own in Lev 18, and the problem with reading that back into Gen 9 is that neither a mother nor a stepmother is mentioned. Additionally, I'm not seeing any Rabbinical literature mentioning either of them mentioned here: HAM - JewishEncyclopedia.com. If the language allowed for Noah's wife to be part of this deal (and I trust that rabbis know Hebrew quite well), why wasn't that extrapolated into a Rabbinical story hundreds or thousands of years ago?

 

[Emmylouwho]

Unfortunately I agree that Ham had intimate relations with his own mother (i.e. Noah's wife).

I created a thread on this a while back that you may find eye opening.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

As for your other questions:

Well, sleeping with one's parents was never acceptable at any point in time.
At one point in time, sleeping with one's brothers and sisters was allowed so as to populate the planet. But after a time, it was no longer needed and sin had degenerated mankind whereby his blood could no longer handle inter-family relations anymore. So then laws on incest were then created in the Law of Moses because mankind's blood could no longer handle intimate relations between those who are next of kin (Brothers, sisters, and cousins, etc.). God's ideal view is the traditional family of today. God is never against true family; And incest (of any kind) is now forbidden.

So are you saying that before moses’ time, incestuous relations didn’t cause birth defects?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I disagree. Through marriage, I take my wife's nakedness personally, and anyone viewing her nudity commits an offense against me. I thought that much would be clear. Does this mean I can never personally be naked? Am I not permitted to be equally protective of my own nakedness? I would think it absurd that Noah drank wine, causing his wife's clothes to fall off (reminds me of a country music tune, but I digress). I might add that his wife was not referenced.

Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.

Yes, and it was a sin, I'm sure.

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

God probably did not create Adam and Eve with deleterious genes. I assume the recessive mutations came later. That being the case, marriage between near relatives earlier on was not harmful as it is now. Give it enough time, and we'll find that we can't get far enough away in our relations to prevent these kinds of problems.

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?

No. It was part of God's design to mix and match genomes, not make carbon copies.

Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?

None of the people you just mentioned were Jews, nor did any Jews exist, anywhere, when those people walked the Earth.

Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

The size of the population would have made it more necessary, but not more acceptable. It was the age of the human species, as a whole, that made the difference. If the Flood happened today, and our population were bottle-necked like that, now, the survivors and their offspring would probably go extinct.

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

We oppose it like the good citizens we are.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
“And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

BUT

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

Do human beings have “strange” relationships now? Haven’t they always? Are you saying because the Bible records things people did that means God is for it?

Now beyond that. What commentators say one of Moses kids was having sex with his mother? An atheist website that starts out saying God told Adam to have sex with the animals? I’m just asking.

As far as marriage between cousins or half siblings. One factor in that is the gene pool wasn’t as limited in human beings as it is now. Meaning you may not get the drastic results you get now. That is how Adams sons could marry Adams sisters. God created everything with the DNA to be able to produce all the different races and animals you see today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So are you saying that before moses’ time, incestuous relations didn’t cause birth defects?

Before the Law: Not including one sleeping with one's parents (because that was always condemned), as a general rule (incest involving brothers, sisters, and cousins) this would be... "no."
Sure, I imagine that there may have been some cases of defects, but as a general rule, I do not believe this was the case because they did not have any official incest laws until the time of the giving of the Law of Moses. Why would God punish mankind for something that He did not outwardly condemn yet? For example: Sarah was the half sister of Abraham. Yet, God did not condemn their relationship. It is only after the giving of the Law that such relations are condemned.

 

[LightLoveHope]

That doesn't explain why Shem & Japheth felt the need to walk backwards. As a care-giver, I have never seen a good Biblical resolution for this.

Nakedness is seen as sinful.
Adam and Eve, Noah, the priests in the temple

11 Pass on in nakedness and shame, you who live in Shaphir. Those who live in Zaanan will not come out. Beth Ezel is in mourning; its protection is taken from you.
Micah 1

Sexual attraction and intimacy is just for two, and is vulnerability and something to be protected, defended. To display this publically is to say anyone can have relations with one, so devaluing that which is precious and private. If one wants to shame an enemy you strip them naked and abuse them how you desire, stripping them of respect care and honour.

In a caring role the opposite is true, one is honouring the person you are caring for and meeting their needs in a protected and dignified way. God bless you

 

[Emmylouwho]

Not including one sleeping with one's parents, as a general rule (incest involving brothers, sisters, and cousins) this would be... "no."
Sure, I imagine that there may have been some cases of defects, but as a general rule, I do not believe this was the case because they did not have any official incest laws until the time of the giving of the Law of Moses. Why would God punish mankind for something that He did not outwardly condemn yet? For example: Sarah was the half sister of Abraham. Yet, God did not condemn their relationship. It is only after the giving of the Law that such relations are condemned.

How do you know this?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you know this?

The Bible. Abraham is hailed as one of the great men of faith in Hebrews 11.
God never condemned Abraham and Sarah's relationship.
In fact, God blessed them with a child as a part of their faith.
If they were acting in sin, God would not bless them for their faith in desiring to have a child in their old age. Then there are the incest laws in the Law of Moses that condemn sleeping with next of kin. Just do a Google search. Abraham lived long before the Law of Moses.

As for birth defects:
God is a fair and just, and good judge. I should not need to have to present a Bible verse to prove that point. Usually bad things happen because of men sinning. One reaps what they sow.

 

[Emmylouwho]

The Bible. Abraham is hailed as one of the great men of faith in Hebrews 11.
God never condemned Abraham and Sarah's relationship.
In fact, God blessed them with a child as a part of their faith.
If they were acting in sin, God would not bless them for their faith in desiring to have a child in their old age. Then there are the incest laws in the Law of Moses that condemn sleeping with next of kin. Just do a Google search. Abraham lived long before the Law of Moses.

As for birth defects:
God is a fair and just, and good judge. I should not need to have to present a Bible verse to prove that point. Usually bad things happen because of men sinning. One reaps what they sow.

No, I mean how do you know that defects were only caused by mother/son incest rather than sister/brother incest. You said something about “mankind’s blood not being able to handle” it anymore.

 

[Dave-W]

The context seems to be just seeing or looking at them naked, but it would include everything south of that, including marriage.

It is a euphemism for sexual activity.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Do human beings have “strange” relationships now? Haven’t they always? Are you saying because the Bible records things people did that means God is for it?

Now beyond that. What commentators say one of Moses kids was having sex with his mother? An atheist website that starts out saying God told Adam to have sex with the animals? I’m just asking.

As far as marriage between cousins or half siblings. One factor in that is the gene pool wasn’t as limited in human beings as it is now. Meaning you may not get the drastic results you get now. That is how Adams sons could marry Adams sisters. God created everything with the DNA to be able to produce all the different races and animals you see today.

It is a euphemism for sexual activity.

So, in Bible-language, what is the term for ACTUALLY seeing someone naked?

 

[Dave-W]

So, in Bible-language, what is the term for ACTUALLY seeing someone naked?

Not sure there is one specifically.

I know the Levitical priests were to wear underwear when making sacrifices and clearing the ashes of prior sacrifices. Apparently seeing male parts during what is supposed to be a worship experience was distracting. And in Ezekiel God speaks thru the prophet that Judah had gone after other gods like a woman going after a man whose "flesh [male organ] is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue [[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]] is like the issue of horses." Ezekiel 23:20 Don't know if you have ever seen either of those, but they are HUGE. Size DOES matter - at least back then it did.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Not sure there is one specifically.

I wonder who turned it into a euphemism. The original writer? The King James translators? Who talks like that?

 

[Dave-W]

I wonder who turned it into a euphemism. The original writer? The King James translators? Who talks like that?

It is that way in the original text. Hebrew is full of euphemisms of all kinds.

 

[eleos1954]

This is going to sound strange but bear with me. Many times throughout the Bible we see relationships that are considered strange in 2019 and rightly so. In Genesis we see Noahs son Canan apperently have sexual relations with his mother.
“And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Many commentators believe that it is a son and mother interaction here because as Noahs wife, she is Noah’s nakedness.(Research into it if you’d like)
Also we see Lot’s children chose to have sex with their father in order to continue his lineage.
“And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In both of these passages it is clear that this was not acceptable to Noah nor Lot. If it were acceptable, Noah would not have said
“Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:25 kjv
And Lot would not have been made drunk in order to be raped essentially by his daughters.

BUT

What we do see in MANY places throughout the Bible, especially the Torah, the husbands and wives usually tend to be cousins. See abraham and sarah. Jacob and rachel. Issac and rebekah and many more, too many to list!

So I guess my question for you guys is this:
Was it part of Gods design to keep marriage within the family? 1st, 2nd or 3rd cousins?
Or
Was this just because of the low amount of Jews in the early years of life on Earth and since Jews only married Jews that’s just how it happened?
Or
Do you think it was just because the population as a whole was just very small?

And more than that, as Christians in 2019 how should we stand on inter-family marriage?

There's a lot about this in the book of
Leviticus (too much to post here)

Jewish born jews married jews, however they also married non-jews (gentiles) ... it was prohibited but some still did it

It seems early on the main reason wasn't a "protected bloodline" issue, rather outside of the Jewish faith other people groups were worshiping idols (strange gods) and all kinds of other "ungodly" things .... ie ... would be a bad influence on the Jewish culture and lead them astray ... and this did happen as well throughout biblical history ...

such as in the story in Numbers 31

Many other biblical accounts of marrying outside the Jewish faith.

Short article here:

On Intermarriage - The Basis for the Jewish Opposition to Intermarriage

as christians, we should always follow the word of God.

we know through Jesus teachings there is neither Jew or Gentile ... all are the same ... but ... interesting ... we are taught to not be unevenly yoked in regard to our faith ... so is the same principle being applied.

 

[Emmylouwho]

It is that way in the original text. Hebrew is full of euphemisms of all kinds.

Slick. Keep it vague and keep it going, I guess.