In the end..

[Benedicta00]

There is NOT one "true church" on this planet today. Not one single denomination is doing things as God would will. They all err in one way or another.

No.. but that is not what the one true Church would be.., it is TEACHING what is right, not always doing what is right.

We are all sinners, we will all sin, sin is just what we do and do best... we all miss the mark, however we do have the grace to try to do what is right.

So the question is, what Church did God leave for us that will TEACH us what is right?

Because if God did not teach us what is right then none of us would ever stand a chance on doing what is right.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sure, but one is Law-based (which makes it defunct), and the other is Grace-based (which makes it operative).

and that is nothing more than a (nasty) untrue accusation, my friend.

 

[ticker]

Nasty? Wuh?

Accusation? Really?

Does Catholicism not believe in a works-based salvation? That's the Law.

Did I miss something here?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Doesn't it matter to you that EVERY EXAMPLE of water baptism in the scriptures (which are the word of God) involves a person who embraced the gospel of God concerning His Son..?

Doesn't it Ortho..?

Are you going to assume that you can baptize a person in water who knows nothing of the gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) and then declare that they ARE born again..?

Is that what you desire to teach people with all your heart.. in honoring the grace and truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.. ?

Is that honoring to the one who went to Calvary's cross willingly, to suffer and to die there..and to be mocked by the religious fanatics of the day..

Here you go.. we poured water on you.. now you're born again.. don't worry about the gospel of God concerning His Son.. we'll deal with that some other time.. ? ?

Is that OK with you..?

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Show me that infants weren't baptized in the Apostolic age. Show me where age was a factor. From ANY historical source.

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

So again.. we follow the command of our Lord Jesus Christ to MAKE DISCIPLES, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

It's pretty tough to make a disciple out of an infant.. and baptizing one in water certainly doesn't mean that they are born again, like the RCC teaches..

Perhaps it doesn't matter to you that every biblical example in the scriptures concerning water baptism involved a person who understood and embraced the gospel of God concerning His Son.. but it certainly matters to many others who take the word of God extremely seriously.. as if every little jot and tittle mattered immensely.. because it does..

But if you'd like to assume that your assembly can baptize an infant, and then declare that they ARE born again.. then that's up to you and the Lord..

I'll always speak against that.. because it's serious.. and I'm a living example of it being false.. I was born again by the miraculous work of God after I called upon His name to save me.. because I believed with all my heart that He suffered, bled, and died on a cross for my sins..

That's when I was saved.. and saved to the uttermost.. by God.. sealed with His Spirit even unto the redemption.. and there is NOTHING that can sever me from the love of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.. perhaps the reason why so many think that they can lose what they could never earn in the first place.. is because of the shallow way in which they're taught to begin with.. because it's not based in the grace and truth of the gospel, but rather in the teaching and doctrines of men.

Parents have the God given right to speak on behalf of their child. Jesus was a baby when he was circumcised right? Of course.

I don't recall Mary and Joesph waiting for Him to be old enough to give consent.

They brought Him to the temple according to the law and they represented Him. On His behalf they brought two turtle doves as a offering.

Again, you make this tedious because you won't acknowledge that we do not see redemption and salvation as one in the same. You assume we believe as you.

A baby when represented by his parents can indeed be redeemed from Adam' sin beuase the baby didn't commit Adam' sin... Adam committed Adam's sin.

We can not save ourselves from the fall.. this is why we needed Christ, because there is nothing we can do to be redeemed from the fall.

This redemption is solely a gift that is given to us... a baby if free to receive this gift... what stops him? Parents who refuse him, that's what.

But for babies who have parents who bring them to Christ... Christ says what? "Suffer them and let them come unto me..."

Of course they will have accept this gift as the grow up if they will be saved in the end.

 

[nestoj]

Actually, I've seen some great Christians who can't read.

nestoj
God helps

 

[Markea]

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Show me that infants weren't baptized in the Apostolic age. Show me where age was a factor. From ANY historical source.

Forgive me...

I can't show you things that ARE NOT in the scriptures Ortho.. but I can certainly show you things WHICH ARE in the scriptures.. and so if it doesn't matter to you what IS actually in the scriptures.. then that's between you and the Lord..

As far as I am concerned... I will follow the Lord's command to make disciples and baptize them in accordance with His authoritive word.. IF your assembly desires to baptize infants and then declare that they are born again.. that is between you and the Lord.

 

[ticker]

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

?

Did you just post this to argue for water baptism? Did you miss the part about how those who received his word were baptized?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I can't show you things that ARE NOT in the scriptures Ortho.. but I can certainly show you things WHICH ARE in the scriptures.. and so if it doesn't matter to you what IS actually in the scriptures.. then that's between you and the Lord..

As far as I am concerned... I will follow the Lord's command to make disciples and baptize them in accordance with His authoritive word.. IF your assembly desires to baptize infants and then declare that they are born again.. that is between you and the Lord.

You are making a huge assumption that infants were not baptized. The Apostolic Churches have ALWAYS baptized infants.

Find me ONE historical argument that infants were not baptized in the Apostolic age.

You have no argument, and base you position on assumption that the Apostolic Churches must be wrong about everything.

The Holy Sacraments were instituted by Christ God himself. You stand against them all. Perhaps you should consider that.

Forgive me...

 

[Markea]

Parents have the God given right to speak on behalf of their child. Jesus was a baby when he was circumcised right? Of course.

I don't recall Mary and Joesph waiting for Him to be old enough to give consent.

They brought Him to the temple according to the law and they represented Him. On His behalf they brought two turtle doves as a offering.

Again, you make this tedious because you won't acknowledge that we do not see redemption and salvation as one in the same. You assume we believe as you.

A baby when represented by his parents can indeed be redeemed from Adam' sin beuase the baby didn't commit Adam' sin... Adam committed Adam's sin.

We can not save ourselves from the fall.. this is why we needed Christ, because there is nothing we can do to be redeemed from the fall.

This redemption is solely a gift that is given to us... a baby if free to receive this gift... what stops him? Parents who refuse him, that's what.

But for babies who have parents who bring them to Christ... Christ says what? "Suffer them and let them come unto me..."

Of course they will have accept this gift as the grow up if they will be saved in the end.

The covenant of circumcision was given to the nation of Israel in accordance with the LAW.. and the Lord Jesus Christ was born under the LAW.

Circumcision was a picture of the miraculous work of God in respect to being born again.. ie, the NT antitype is circumcision of the heart.. when a person actually does become born again.. and it's as Peter says.. we are as NEWBORN babes in Christ then.. and we need the sincere milk of the word in order to grow thereby.. in the first chapter he writes that we are born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever.. through the preaching of the gospel.. because IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes..

It's not about pouring water on an infant who doesn't understand the gospel and then declaring that they're born again.. that has nothing to do with the bible.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

?

Did you just post this to argue for water baptism? Did you miss the part about how those who received his word were baptized?

Did you miss the part that they were baptized and recieved into The Church?

Baptism is by water and the spirit simultaniously my friend.

Act 8:36And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Forgive me...

 

[Markea]

You are making a huge assumption that infants were not baptized. The Apostolic Churches have ALWAYS baptized infants.

Find me ONE historical argument that infants were not baptized in the Apostolic age.

You have no argument, and base you position on assumption that the Apostolic Churches must be wrong about everything.

The Holy Sacraments were instituted by Christ God himself. You stand against them all. Perhaps you should consider that.

So take your own advice here.. show me one biblical example of an infant being baptized, and then, declared to be born again..

It's simply not there.. and I'm sure that you'll agree to that.. and so it comes down to you willing to make a judgment on something which the NT of our Lord Jesus Christ simply does not teach..

If you're willing to do that.. then as mentioned.. that's between the Lord and your assembly.. but remember that the NT is sealed by the precious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.. so tread carefully in matters where there is not teaching..

 

[Benedicta00]

Evidence of babies being baptized in the early Church.
unless any of you think the Church fell into error as early as 110 years after Christ ascended, then this is pretty compelling.

"And when a child has been born to one of them[ie Christians], they give thanks to God[ie baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins."

Aristides,Apology,15(A.D. 140),in ANF,X:277-278

"Polycarp declared, 'Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and Saviour?"

Polycarp,Martyrdom of Polycarp,9(A.D. 156),in ANF,I:41

"And many,both men and women, who have been Christ's disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixtey or seventy years..."

Justin Martyr,First Apology,15:6(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:167

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies,2,22:4 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:391

"I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixy-five years in the Lord."

Polycrates,Fragment in Eusebius' Church History, V:24:7(A.D. 190),in NPNF2,I:242

 

[Benedicta00]

The covenant of circumcision was given to the nation of Israel in accordance with the LAW.. and the Lord Jesus Christ was born under the LAW.

Circumcision was a picture of the miraculous work of God in respect to being born again.. ie, the NT antitype is circumcision of the heart.. when a person actually does become born again.. and it's as Peter says.. we are as NEWBORN babes in Christ then.. and we need the sincere milk of the word in order to grow thereby.. in the first chapter he writes that we are born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever.. through the preaching of the gospel.. because IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes..

It's not about pouring water on an infant who doesn't understand the gospel and then declaring that they're born again.. that has nothing to do with the bible.

Did you read any of what I wrote? Your argument that infants must give consent was debunked.

 

[Markea]

Any biblical examples Bene..?

Didn't think so..

 

[ticker]

Did you miss the part that they were baptized and recieved into The Church?

???

But how were they baptized?...That's the debate. It was done by receving the word. I think water baptism has its place, but it's got nothing to do with the one true baptism (...being burried with Christ and risen with Him).

True baptism (into Christ) is recieved by hearing and believing in God's word...the rest is just a demonstration of one's faith.

Act 8:36And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And why would you leave out the verse just before, which AGAIN is about recieving the word?...


Acts 8:35 - "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him."


Kinda figures, doesn't it?

 

[Benedicta00]

Any biblical examples Bene..?

Didn't think so..

Why... are there supposed be?? What makes you think so?

You have to stop wit this illogical argument that contradicts common sense.

These notions you come up with as you read the bible through this ridged prism you created makes no logical sense.

No one was a born Christian, ppl were Jews, adult Jews had to come to believe in the first generation after Christ went up in order to be baptized or how else were they going to be? Christ never forced any one to believe in Him and be baptized and you know that.

This is why belief was/still to this day is required to be baptized.

Baptism is when you are newly created in Christ via God's grace confer to you. We see that clearly stated in Acts 2. "Believe and be baptized everyone of you and you will receive the gift of God.. this promise is for you and for your children...

What more do you want?

We won't see babies being baptized in the NT for the simple reason, at that time, the mission was to convert adult Jews and Gentiles. After they were converted what did they do? That's right Mark, they brought their households to the Church for baptism.

This totally coincides with what the Church still does today.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Saved by works..
I'm truly damned.
Someone close this.

 

[Rhamiel]

I got the last post beforwe it was closed,

 

[PaladinValer]

No works, no salvation. The Letter of St. James makes that quite clear.