In the end..

[Markea]

You are correct... any person IN CHRIST is already in the church, because that's what the church is.

However, that does not mean that any person who thinks they are IN CHRIST is already in the church.

I do hope that you would be willing to admit that not every person who thinks they are IN CHRIST actually is.

I would agree, because professing Christ without possessing Christ are worlds apart.. a person is either IN CHRIST and therefore a member of His body, or they are not.. and so if they're in Christ.. they are IN the church.. they are not outside of it as your previous comments implied.

Why did the Eunuch desire to be baptized in the water? He was a Christian at the moment he professed his belief. Was it not to be joined with The Church?

Forgive me...

The water baptism didn't make him a member of the body of Christ.. Christ made him a member of His body..

Don't you remember.. ?

John baptized with water but Christ baptizes us into His own body by His Spirit.. ie, like this..

[bible]1 Corinthians 12:13[/bible]

Water baptism if for those who already believe.. and when a person believes.. God alone knows the heart.. and He knowing the heart, purifies their heart by their faith.. it's the circumcision made without hands.. ie, the circumcision of the heart.

 

[Benedicta00]

The water baptism didn't make him a member of the body of Christ.. Christ made him a member of His body..

And the dichotomies still roll.

Don't you remember what Christ said? Context is everything Mark and with out Tradition, you have no context.

18And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The great commission was to go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them.

Before Christ death, resurrection and ascension, conversion was necessary. The Jews had to come to believe and be baptized... but now since Christ's work is finished, He came, He preached, He converted, He dies, He rises, He ascends and leaves His Church with the same task... the grate divine commission to go make disciples baptizing them [and] teaching them all that He commanded.

The Church, as per Christ clearly tells us, He sent His Church out unto the world to save souls.

How does His Church bring His pascal mystery to them if not through baptism?

 

[Rhamiel]

Lets not let this thread derail into a million litte debates between Catholics and Protestants
Ishida asked a question and now we are trying to answer, if you have something on topic please add but if it is just more "Catholics and Orthoxod don't understand what the Church is" from Markea, no offene but we have heard it before, you you reall want to say that make your own thread, I do not think that is too much

 

[Markea]

And the dichotomies still roll.

Don't you remember what Christ said? Context is everything Mark and with out Tradition, you have no context.


The great commission was to go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them.

Before Christ death, resurrection and ascension, conversion was necessary. The Jews had to come to believe and be baptized... but now since Christ's work is finished, He came, He preached, He converted... He ascends and leaves His Church with the same task... the grate divine commission to go make disciples baptizing them [and] teaching them all that He commanded.

The Church, as per Christ clearly tells us, He sent His Church out unto the world to save souls.

How does His Church bring His pascal mystery to them if not through baptism?

That's right.. and you'll find that water baptism is for those who ALREADY BELIEVE.. we just baptized a brother who came to know His Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ through the power of preaching the gospel..

But it wasn't his water baptism which placed him into the body of Christ.. it was the miraculous work of Christ which placed him into His own body.. the circumcision made without hands.. the circumcision of the heart. This man was born again through the Spirit of God before he was baptized.. he was already a sealed Spirit filled believer in the Lord Jesus Christ..

John truly did baptize with water.. but Christ baptizes us into His own body by His own Spirit.. and that's a miracle.. and it's for those who believe..

[bible]1 Corinthians 12:13[/bible]

Perhaps one of the most dangerous and false teaching in Christendom today, is that of men pouring water onto infants and then declaring them to be members of Christ's body.. as if that act demanded it to be so..

It's a serious lie.. and multitudes are taught this very thing..

My manager is a catholic, and there's not a day that goes by when I don't hear him use the Lord's name in vain.. as if he could care less that the Son of God suffered and died on a cross for him.. but hey.. he was baptized.. he was born again right..

I doubt it.. cause I was taught the same exact lie.. and I didn't know Christ at all.. and I know for a fact that I was NOT born again when I was baptized in the RCC as an infant..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA
You are correct... any person IN CHRIST is already in the church, because that's what the church is.

However, that does not mean that any person who thinks they are IN CHRIST is already in the church.

I do hope that you would be willing to admit that not every person who thinks they are IN CHRIST actually is.

What we have is the hope of salvation, it is promised to us if we endure in a living faith until the end.

I would agree with that.

http://foru.ms/t5366795-what-is-the-parousia-in-the-new-testament.html

Romans 13:12 The Night progresses, the yet Day has neared/hggiken <1448> (5758). We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Luke 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that has-neard/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Desolating of Her.
22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) may be fulfilled.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I would agree, because professing Christ without possessing Christ are worlds apart.. a person is either IN CHRIST and therefore a member of His body, or they are not.. and so if they're in Christ.. they are IN the church.. they are not outside of it as your previous comments implied.



The water baptism didn't make him a member of the body of Christ.. Christ made him a member of His body..

Don't you remember.. ?

John baptized with water but Christ baptizes us into His own body by His Spirit.. ie, like this..

[bible]1 Corinthians 12:13[/bible]

Water baptism if for those who already believe.. and when a person believes.. God alone knows the heart.. and He knowing the heart, purifies their heart by their faith.. it's the circumcision made without hands.. ie, the circumcision of the heart.

I am sorry that you misunderstand this important aspect of Christianity.

Have you been baptized in water and spirit?

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am sorry that you misunderstand this important aspect of Christianity.

Have you been baptized in water and spirit?

Forgive me...

Does being baptized in the Gulf of Mexico count?

 

[Markea]

I am sorry that you misunderstand this important aspect of Christianity.

Have you been baptized in water and spirit?

Forgive me...

Don't be sorry.. I think that I do understand water baptism.. at least from the examples which we are shown in the scriptures..

Notice that in every single case it involves a person who already believes..

Some denominations would make it a requirement to be baptized in water in order for them to partake of the Lord's Supper.. that sort of thing.. and it also shows the assembly that the person is committed to the Lord Jesus Christ.. by submitting to the Lord's command to be baptized..

I think that many groups get into trouble though when they start teaching that water baptism places us into Christ.. or that it can be done to those who have no clue at all as to what is going on.. (like an infant), and then declare that they're IN CHRIST..

Yet people are taught this continually..

AND yes, I was baptized in water in obedience to the Lord's command.. after I was born again by His Spirit.

 

[Rhamiel]

Notice that in every single case it involves a person who already believes..

not true, entire households where baptised, this was not the modern area, I think a household would be quite a few members of the extended family as well

 

[Markea]

not true, entire households where baptised, this was not the modern area, I think a household would be quite a few members of the extended family as well

But here you're implying something that you do not know.. and every case that IS provided in the scriptures involves a person who actually does believe..

 

[Benedicta00]

Lets not let this thread derail into a million litte debates between Catholics and Protestants
Ishida asked a question and now we are trying to answer, if you have something on topic please add but if it is just more "Catholics and Orthoxod don't understand what the Church is" from Markea, no offene but we have heard it before, you you reall want to say that make your own thread, I do not think that is too much

There is no thread here... Ish asked a question based on a very false premise. There is no such thing as OSAS.

 

[Benedicta00]

But here you're implying something that you do not know.. and every case that IS provided in the scriptures involves a person who actually does believe..

And here is where common sense comes into play. Why did they have to come to believe?

That's right... because there were no cradle Christians, everyone was a Jew or a non Christian and the Jews had to come to believe before they could be baptized, i.e. saved.

We do know that "households" were brought to the Church for baptism because the bible says so and we know they brought infants and children as well as their slaves because we see them doing it in the first few centuries. These would be the first generation of Christians, the first to be born Christian.

I'll tell you what we don't see happening in the bible or in the first 16 centuries is ppl saying the sinners prayer and getting 'saved' by it.

That is what we don't see and we don't see it for a reason, because it wasn't the teaching of Christ or the apostles. Baptize, make disciples was/still is the teaching.

 

[Benedicta00]

Notice that in every single case it involves a person who already believes

Again, another strawman that doesn't apply here because in the bible NO ONE BEGAN AS A CHRISTIAN... If you are an adult raised as a non Christian or a non believer, of course you must have a disposition of belief... the Church can not/will not force baptism on anyone. They have to desire it.

Where you err is in thinking it's our belief in of itself that saves us... no, it is the grace of God that saves us that He confers to anyone who comes to Him through baptism.

Holy Baptism is not just a sign of what happens spiritually, it is a sign that points to a reality, it is what happens spiritually to our soul.

It is a mystery, it is the pascal mystery to be exact where we mystically but literally enter into Christ's own death and resurrection and THAT (Christ) is what saves us, not our "belief."

 

[ticker]

You ppl have got to stop with the false dichotomies already.. it's not the works that we do and it's not just "believe"... a person has to have/do BOTH.

Well, I knew this one would come up...which is why I already posted the explanation in my last post.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39518998&postcount=11

True belief (which resides in our very being, all by the Grace of God), as compared to the belief the demons have (which is simply an intellectual belief) DOES produce works! That's the point of the passage!

This is the classic, age-old example of misinterpretation of scripture. And again, it all has to do with the lenses you have on when you're reading the Bible...the lenses of "Law" (which is something that no longer applies to a Christian), or the lenses of "Grace" (which is the all-encompassing message of the Bible).

And even if it was just 'believe,' what ever you think the definition of that is, you still have to believe to the end like Jesus said... "those who endure to the end will be saved..."

But we (Christians) DO endure to the end...that's what we were created to do. This verse is simply stating the obvious about what God has already accomplished in us....didn't you know?


Romans 8:30 - "And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."


It's a done deal...so deal with it!
(Man...who woulda thunk the glorious gift of God would be such a hard sell. Geesh!)

This is what Paul said, "Work out you salvation with fear and trembling..."

But you've just repeated the same incomplete piece of scripture you posted last time, after I have already shown how in its fullnes its' not at all what you think it means.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39517897&postcount=10


So here's some more versus to think about...WARNING: These seem to suggest that God has actually done all the work, and that it's not up to us to take matters into our own hands after all (...what a concept).


Isaiah 46:10 - "Declaring the end from the beginning and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"

Colossians 2:10 - "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority"

2 Timothy 1:12 - "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."


And there's lots more where those came from.


Peace.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Markea,

Please show me an instance in the Bible where Baptism was withheld due to age. Indeed, show me from any ancient Christian document. Biblical or otherwise.

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, I knew this one would come up...which is why I already posted the explanation in my last post.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39518998&postcount=11

True belief (which resides in our very being, all by the Grace of God), as compared to the belief the demons have (which is simply an intellectual belief) DOES produce works! That's the point of the passage!

This is the classic, age-old example of misinterpretation of scripture. And again, it all has to do with the lenses you have on when you're reading the Bible...the lenses of "Law" (which is something that no longer applies to a Christian), or the lenses of "Grace" (which is the all-encompassing message of the Bible).



But we (Christians) DO endure to the end...that's what we were created to do. This verse is simply stating the obvious about what God has already accomplished in us....didn't you know?


Romans 8:30 - "And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."


It's a done deal...so deal with it!
(Man...who woulda thunk the glorious gift of God would be such a hard sell. Geesh!)



But you've just repeated the same incomplete piece of scripture you posted last time, after I have already shown how in its fullnes its' not at all what you think it means.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39517897&postcount=10


So here's some more versus to think about...WARNING: These seem to suggest that God has actually done all the work, and that it's not up to us to take matters into our own hands after all (...what a concept).


Isaiah 46:10 - "Declaring the end from the beginning and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"

Colossians 2:10 - "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority"

2 Timothy 1:12 - "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."


And there's lots more where those came from.


Peace.

You read the bible through your lens and I mine. It's called exegesis and we all have it.

It is where we are getting our ideas and preconceived notions from we need to concern ourselves with.

Mine is from the apostolic oral Tradition handed down to us from Christ through His Church... Yours is from the Protestant Reformers traditions that were a protest against the teachings of the early apostolic Church...

Peace to you.

 

[Markea]

And here is where common sense comes into play. Why did they have to come to believe?

That's right... because there were no cradle Christians, everyone was a Jew or a non Christian and the Jews had to come to believe before they could be baptized, i.e. saved.

We do know that "households" were brought to the Church for baptism because the bible says so and we know they brought infants and children as well as their slaves because we see them doing it in the first few centuries. These would be the first generation of Christians, the first to be born Christian.

I'll tell you what we don't see happening in the bible or in the first 16 centuries is ppl saying the sinners prayer and getting 'saved' by it.

That is what we don't see and we don't see it for a reason, because it wasn't the teaching of Christ or the apostles. Baptize, make disciples was/still is the teaching.

So again.. we follow the command of our Lord Jesus Christ to MAKE DISCIPLES, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

It's pretty tough to make a disciple out of an infant.. and baptizing one in water certainly doesn't mean that they are born again, like the RCC teaches..

Perhaps it doesn't matter to you that every biblical example in the scriptures concerning water baptism involved a person who understood and embraced the gospel of God concerning His Son.. but it certainly matters to many others who take the word of God extremely seriously.. as if every little jot and tittle mattered immensely.. because it does..

But if you'd like to assume that your assembly can baptize an infant, and then declare that they ARE born again.. then that's up to you and the Lord..

I'll always speak against that.. because it's serious.. and I'm a living example of it being false.. I was born again by the miraculous work of God after I called upon His name to save me.. because I believed with all my heart that He suffered, bled, and died on a cross for my sins..

That's when I was saved.. and saved to the uttermost.. by God.. sealed with His Spirit even unto the redemption.. and there is NOTHING that can sever me from the love of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.. perhaps the reason why so many think that they can lose what they could never earn in the first place.. is because of the shallow way in which they're taught to begin with.. because it's not based in the grace and truth of the gospel, but rather in the teaching and doctrines of men.

 

[ticker]

You read the bible through your lens and I mine.

Sure, but one is Law-based (which makes it defunct), and the other is Grace-based (which makes it operative).

 

[GodsChild07]

In regards to the "ONE TRUE CHURCH" topic, perhaps it'd be better in a denominational forum, but I suppose i'll post it here anyway, even though it is a question. I know that most believe that we(Those not in the church, but still in Christ) have salvation as well even though we don't submit(I'm sure there is a better word, don't be offended..) to your church. When we go to our heavenly Father, will it matter if we were in "full communion" or having the "fullness of the truth"? Thanks for answers, and do not worry when answering, I do not want to trap anyone.

There is NOT one "true church" on this planet today. Not one single denomination is doing things as God would will. They all err in one way or another.

 

[Markea]

Markea,

Please show me an instance in the Bible where Baptism was withheld due to age. Indeed, show me from any ancient Christian document. Biblical or otherwise.

Forgive me...

Doesn't it matter to you that EVERY EXAMPLE of water baptism in the scriptures (which are the word of God) involves a person who embraced the gospel of God concerning His Son..?

Doesn't it Ortho..?

Are you going to assume that you can baptize a person in water who knows nothing of the gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) and then declare that they ARE born again..?

Is that what you desire to teach people with all your heart.. in honoring the grace and truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.. ?

Is that honoring to the one who went to Calvary's cross willingly, to suffer and to die there..and to be mocked by the religious fanatics of the day..

Here you go.. we poured water on you.. now you're born again.. don't worry about the gospel of God concerning His Son.. we'll deal with that some other time.. ? ?

Is that OK with you..?