In defence of Chiliasm (or premillenialism)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Better question: Where is Christ' Kingdom now?

The Kingdom of God is the Church

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Saying that Jesus has already come lines up with the Nicene Creed? No it doesn't.

There are different ways of interpreting the Creed. This view does not contradict it. In fact, Erwin made a special note that this view did not, and that we are welcome to hold it.

 

[@@Paul@@]

The Kingdom of God is the Church

That's a little ONE sided ... Take a look around: does it look like God's Kingdom?

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.​

.........Is His will, being done on earth AS IT IS being done IN HEAVEN?

 

[FreeinChrist]

There are different ways of interpreting the Creed. This view does not contradict it. In fact, Erwin made a special note that this view did not, and that we are welcome to hold it.

I think Erwin made a point that beleiving the Second coming occurred in the past (70 AD) is NOT compliant with the Nicene Creed.:
The Nicene Creed, which lists out the tenets of basic Christian doctrine used for centuries has this statement in it:

Quote:

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead...

which full preterists don't believe in as full preterists believe that the 2nd coming of Christ has occurred already, and that we are living in the golden age of Christ's kingdom. This is an extreme view. Some preterists, (who sometimes call themselves partial or orthodox preterists) apparently still believe in the 2nd coming of Christ - this is the differentiating factor between "full" preterists and other preterists.

I differ regarding this in that I have found 'partial preterists' who have made the Second Coming into a spiritual event that occurs at each of our deaths. That isn't compliant either.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

That's a little ONE sided ... Take a look around: does it look like God's Kingdom?

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.​

.........Is His will, being done on earth AS IT IS being done IN HEAVEN?

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are different from what I have seen. Do not expect for their to be a perfect kingdom on this earth.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are different from what I have seen. Do not expect for their to be a perfect kingdom on this earth.

OK, well, we'll leave it at that...

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think Erwin made a point that beleiving the Second coming occurred in the past (70 AD) is NOT compliant with the Nicene Creed.:
The Nicene Creed, which lists out the tenets of basic Christian doctrine used for centuries has this statement in it:

Quote:

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead...

which full preterists don't believe in as full preterists believe that the 2nd coming of Christ has occurred already, and that we are living in the golden age of Christ's kingdom. This is an extreme view. Some preterists, (who sometimes call themselves partial or orthodox preterists) apparently still believe in the 2nd coming of Christ - this is the differentiating factor between "full" preterists and other preterists.

I differ regarding this in that I have found 'partial preterists' who have made the Second Coming into a spiritual event that occurs at each of our deaths. That isn't compliant either.

You are missing the difference. Full preterists believe that all of Revelation is over with, as in heaven is already come, and the millenium is over, judgement has happened, etc. Partial preterists (for the most part) believe we are still in the 1000 years.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Mod hat on

Anyone that says that Christ has already returned in 70AD cannot post in eschatology. This is the part of full preterism that is not allowed here.
Mod hat off

 

[Breetai]

That's a patently non-literal and unbiblical explanation. How could Jesus Christ have promised those literal, first-century Asia Minor churches that he would perform all those things at his coming to them, and then not do it?

A preterist is accusing a pre-millennialist of being non-literal? That's a new one.

No. He came to set up His kingdom, and is still reigning now. When He comes to judge, He will simply become visible, though He has not left us. Only 1 second coming.

Preterism assumes two second comings. You're understanding of "He has not left us" should apply to His resurrection/pentecost. He did set up His Kingdom there, but that Kingdom is not of this Earth and did not come to this Earth in 70AD(other than through the Holy Spirit prior to 70).

 

[parousia70]

No, parousia, you are just playing your usual games. And dodging many points entirely.

And did I use the word prescribed? Please try to be more honest and not put down words I didn't use. That is an example of your game-playing.

Just helping our readers draw the logical conclusion of your view.

Since you believe Isaiah 65 speaks of the millennium (even though Isaiah testifies he is describing the new heavens and earth.....) and you believe this millennium to be a future, temporal epoch, you must conclude that one of the purposes of this millennium for human beings is that they "Shall bring forth offspring" as Isaiah testifies in that chapter.

Indeed, it is a PRESCRIBED action from God, to humans during the time Isaiah speaks of in Isaiah 65, He calls it the "new heavens and earth" time period, although you call it the millennium.

Thus, You champion this notion of prescribed marital pleasure, for the purpose of bringing forth offspring during the millennium. As I said, you have merely relegated cerinthus' view of sensual pleasures to the status of "secondary import".

Is marriage "prescribed" now, parousia? Or is it a choice one makes?

Marital sexual pleasure for the purpose of bringing forth offspring is indeed a prescribed aspect of covenental marraige between a man and a woman with Christ at the head.

Don't you beleive that Christ's kingdom is earthly in that we are in the kingdom now and this is all it will ever be...we will go on and on just like this?

Yes and no
Yes I believe Christ is the current King of earth today and all are subject to him presently, no I do not believe "this is all it will ever be".

I agree with Isaiah that "The increase of His government and of His peace shall NEVER END" (Is9:7)

Don't you beleive we are already in the new heavens and earth and nothing else will occur on this earth?

I Share the Belief of the writer of Hebrews that that we "have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels (Hb 12:22)
And again, contrary to your mistaken assement, I believe God has innumerable blessings which to bestow upon this earth in our future.. so many it is impossible to comprehend. To suggest that I believe "nothing else will occur on this earth" is simply unlearned.I have recommended to you before that you take the time to find out what I believe before attempting a lucid refutation of it, so far it appears you'd rather presume what I believe and shoot down your own assumptions.

The temple described in Ezekiel 40 has never been built. I don't beleive that God gives false prophecy. apparently you do.

Nice try.
God's prophesy is true, your instance that Ezek 40 describes a future literal earthly temple with people slaying bulls and goats as sin offerings for atonement before a physical Jesus Christ is what is false.

I soundly rebuke your heresy of full preterism!

I'm not promoting full preterism here, no one is.
Your continuing desire to inject it into the topic and rally against it when no one here is promoting it, shows the lack of depth to your entire position.

Zechariah 14 hasn't occurred yet. What you have partaken of is the Holy Spirit.

Yes. and Jesus Christ proclaimed that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was the complete and total fulfillment of any and all OT prophesy about "living waters".

His interpratation is authoratative for me, it should also be for you.

 

[Breetai]

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are different from what I have seen.

I'll buy that.

Partial preterists (for the most part) believe we are still in the 1000 years.

So do amillennialists. If you say that Christ did return in 70AD, then you'd be a full preterist(although that would not stop you from being a Christian!).

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So do amillennialists. If you say that Christ did return in 70AD, then you'd be a full preterist.

4) Preterists who believe that Christ will still return can post in Christians-only forums as this is in keeping with the contents of the Nicene Creed. This would include partial or orthodox preterists.

You are confusing the establishment of the kingdom as the return of Christ. I still believe in the return of Christ

 

[MethodMan]

edited for r

 

[parousia70]

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are different.....
..... I'll buy that.

Then you just bought a lemon.
The apostloic testimony does not share this idea of seperation between the Kingdoms of God, Heaven and Christ.
The scriptural record proves they are synonymous:


Matthew 11
11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."



Matthew 16
28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

These paired examples are entirely paralell, and paralell texts can not be interprated in such a way as to arrive at different meanings from one another.

 

[FreeinChrist]

You are missing the difference. Full preterists believe that all of Revelation is over with, as in heaven is already come, and the millenium is over, judgement has happened, etc. Partial preterists (for the most part) believe we are still in the 1000 years.

Most of the partial preterists I know believe the 1000 years is over and we are in the new heavens and earth. Gary Demar and Kenneth Gentry are well known partial preterists who beleive this way. They just say that Christ will return to judge the living and the dead - and nothing is known of how or when.

The belief that we are in the 1000 years is more in line with amil.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Most of the partial preterists I know believe the 1000 years is over and we are in the new heavens and earth. Gary Demar and Kenneth Gentry are well known partial preterists who beleive this way. They just say that Christ will return to judge the living and the dead - and nothing is known of how or when.

The belief that we are in the 1000 years is more in line with amil.

Partial Preterists come in different degrees. They are VERY close to full preterism. I am more of an Amill Partial Preterist.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Then you just bought a lemon.
The apostloic testimony does not share this idea of seperation between the Kingdoms of God, Heaven and Christ.
The scriptural record proves they are synonymous:


Matthew 11
11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."



Matthew 16
28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

These paired examples are entirely paralell, and paralell texts can not be interprated in such a way as to arrive at different meanings from one another.

So you believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is the church also?

 

[parousia70]

So you believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is the church also?

I Share the apostle Paul's belief that "the kingdom of God [Heaven, Christ] is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Ro 14:17)

I believe the Church is the very Body of Christ on earth.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I Share the apostle Paul's belief that "the kingdom of God [Heaven, Christ] is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Ro 14:17)

I believe the Church is the very Body of Christ on earth.

But do you have any scriptures that say the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same?

 

[FreeinChrist]

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Just helping our readers draw the logical conclusion of your view.

So they think a prophecy given in 96 AD was all about a past event? That the Second was in 70 AD?

Since you believe Isaiah 65 speaks of the millennium (even though Isaiah testifies he is describing the new heavens and earth.....) and you believe this millennium to be a future, temporal epoch, you must conclude that one of the purposes of this millennium for human beings is that they "Shall bring forth offspring" as Isaiah testifies in that chapter.

Indeed, it is a PRESCRIBED action from God, to humans during the time Isaiah speaks of in Isaiah 65, He calls it the "new heavens and earth" time period, although you call it the millennium.

You are beating dead horse, parousia. If you have no idea what the difference between a marriage under God and what Cerinthus taught, I can't help you.

Marriage under God is wonderful thing. Looking forward to a millennium for the sensual pleasure rather than the peace that will be under the rule of Christ is not.

As a Christian, you should understand this.

Thus, You champion this notion of prescribed marital pleasure, for the purpose of bringing forth offspring during the millennium. As I said, you have merely relegated cerinthus' view of sensual pleasures to the status of "secondary import".

I "champion this notion of prescribed marital pleasure" - wow, you are surely working very hard in your gameplaying parousia.
Since you believe we are already in the new heavens and earth, YOU obviously beleive that there is marriage and birth in this time.

I Share the Belief of the writer of Hebrews that that we "have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels (Hb 12:22)

And yes, I do in the spiritual sense...but I also agree with the author of Hebrews that Christ will return a second time. He came once physically, and will return physically a second time.

And again, contrary to your mistaken assement, I believe God has innumerable blessings which to bestow upon this earth in our future.. so many it is impossible to comprehend. To suggest that I believe "nothing else will occur on this earth" is simply unlearned.I have recommended to you before that you take the time to find out what I believe before attempting a lucid refutation of it, so far it appears you'd rather presume what I believe and shoot down your own assumptions.

Mistaken? No. I remember many, many past discussions with you on this mb and a few others.
You believed allthose times that all of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD.

I'm not promoting full preterism here, no one is.
Your continuing desire to inject it into the topic and rally against it when no one here is promoting it, shows the lack of depth to your entire position.

No...it means I know where you re really coming from.