In defence of Chiliasm (or premillenialism)

[parousia70]

You are working hard to prevert my words and it is pathetic, parousia.

Not at all.
Merely trying to understand yor position and where you differ from this Cerinthus.

Just so I'm clear, You state that marital sexual pleasure will be available and indeed prescribed as part and parcle to the nature of, and purpose for the Millennium, but believe it is a secondary purpose, while you say Cerinthus believed it to be primary?

That is the only difference I can see.

It is going back to the memorial sacrifices that will be in the temple described in Ezekiel 40 - 44 - which has never been built.

The future sacrifices will not be for salvation. Salvation was attained once for all.

As GW Stated, the blood animal sacrifices in Ezek 14 are the the ones prescribed by the law of Moses, and are in no way "memorial".

The Christ I worship will never require anyone to shed the blood of bulls and goats in His presence, or anywhere for that matter, for whatever reason.

I resoundly rebuke this "Backwards redemption" theology of yours!

As Zech 14:8 states so plainly, "In that day living waters shall go forth from Jerusalem"

I have partaken of those living waters that flowed from Jerusalem 2000 years ago, in that day, and I shall never thirst for them again.

 

[parousia70]

FREE:
Premillennialists (Cerinthians) are heading back to, *gasp*, animal blood sacrifices and circumcision of flesh (Ez 44:7,9). What a knock against the finished work of Christ. What a misunderstanding.

Relax GW, I'm sure people will only be required by Christ to have their fesh circumcized as a "memorial".

 

[FreeinChrist]

FREE:
It is going back to the memorial sacrifices that will be in the temple described in Ezekiel 40 - 44

GW:
The sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel 40-44 are the ones prescribed by Moses in the Mosaic Law. These are not "memorial sacrifices" by any stretch of the imagination. They are animal blood sacrifices for sin. Premillennialists (Cerinthians) are heading back to, *gasp*, animal blood sacrifices and circumcision of flesh (Ez 44:7,9). What a knock against the finished work of Christ. What a misunderstanding.

Yes, there were memorial sacrifices in the Mosiac Law.

I notice you keep trying to make premillennialism as following Cerinthus - shows you have no desire to be truthful in the least. Not a surprize.

And funny thing...not a SINGLE ECF beleived anythinng of the full preterism you do. Not a one believed Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD. The heresy of full preterism was not known.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Not at all.
Merely trying to understand yor position and where you differ from this Cerinthus.

Just so I'm clear, You state that marital sexual pleasure will be available and indeed prescribed as part and parcle to the nature of, and purpose for the Millennium, but believe it is a secondary purpose, while you say Cerinthus believed it to be primary?

That is the only difference I can see.

No, parousia, you are just playing your usual games. And dodging many points entirely.

And did I use the word prescribed? Please try to be more honest and not put down words I didn't use. That is an example of your game-playing.

Is marriage "prescribed" now, parousia? Or is it a choice one makes?
Don't you beleive that Christ's kingdom is earthly in that we are in the kingdom now and this is all it will ever be...we will go on and on just like this? Don't you beleive we are already in teh new heavens and earth and nothing else will occur on this earth?

Many beleived in premillennialism who took it from teching that came from John the Revelator. They didn't agtree with many things that Cerinthus believed. Cerinthus' heresies are that he denied the virgin birth, believed it was just the human Christ (no diety) that died on the cross, and didn't beleive Christ was diety until the time he was baptized, AND that the millennium was a time for sensual pleasure as opposed to the glory of God and fulfillment of prophecy.

I suspect you will continue to play games with this....it is what I expect of you and GW. Frankly, I think it is just sour grapes.

As GW Stated, the blood animal sacrifices in Ezek 14 are the the ones prescribed by the law of Moses, and are in no way "memorial".

The Christ I worship will never require anyone to shed the blood of bulls and goats in His presence, or anywhere for that matter, for whatever reason.

The temple described in Ezekiel 40 has never been built. I don't beleive that God gives false prophecy. apparently you do.

I resoundly rebuke this "Backwards redemption" theology of yours!

I soundly rebuke your heresy of full preterism!

As Zech 14:8 states so plainly, "In that day living waters shall go forth from Jerusalem"

I have partaken of those living waters that flowed from Jerusalem 2000 years ago, in that day, and I shall never thirst for them again.

Zechariah 14 hasn't occurred yet. What you have partaken of is the Holy Spirit.

back to your game-playing now.

 

[Breetai]

It seems that some people here are holding the view that Jesus has already returned in 70AD.

This view is not allowed in this part of the forum, so anyone holding this view who is posting here is bearing false witness; which is a sin. Am I wrong in concluding this?

 

[GW]

Hi Breetai.

Some of us are partial preterists that hold the beliefs of great Christians down the centuries like Eusebius, Chrysostom, John Lightfoot, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards, F.W. Farrar, R.C. Sproul, and Scott Hahn. All these people recognized that AD 70 fulfilled the imminent "near" and "at hand" and "soon" coming of God in judgment upon their nation. The end of the cosmos will take place at a time and form known only to God.

Partial preterism is fully Orthodox.

 

[GW]

DIONYSIUS:
"But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one."

CAIUS:
"But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth"



The doctrine of an earthly kingdom of Christ on earth was rejected by Dionysius, Caius, and Eusebius. They correctly attribute the origin of this erroneous doctrine to the arch heretic Cerinthus.

 

[GW]

FREE:
Yes, there were memorial sacrifices in the Mosiac Law.

GW:
You are fooling yourself about Ezekiel 40-44's sacrifices. They are propitiatory and forever:

Ezekiel 40:39
In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.

Ezekiel 42:13
the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

Ezekiel 43:20
'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 43:21
'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

Ezekiel 43:22
'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

Ezekiel 43:27
'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU

Ezekiel 44:9
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:10
"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people

Ezekiel 44:23
"Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.
​

All these offerings are the propitiatory offerings of the Mosaic Law that Jesus came to destroy forever. The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

It seems that some people here are holding the view that Jesus has already returned in 70AD.

This view is not allowed in this part of the forum, so anyone holding this view who is posting here is bearing false witness; which is a sin. Am I wrong in concluding this?

It lines up fine with the Nicene Creed.

 

[Breetai]

Saying that Jesus has already come lines up with the Nicene Creed? No it doesn't.

 

[Bulldog]

Saying that Jesus has already come lines up with the Nicene Creed? No it doesn't.

Many partial preterists believe that Jesus made a coming in AD 70, but it was not the second coming, they believe the second coming to be future.

This has no contradiction with the Nicene Creed.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Saying that Jesus has already come lines up with the Nicene Creed? No it doesn't.

You are right. It doesn't. Partial preterism is allowed, but many who hold that don't beleive in a physical return of Christ in glory...but a 'coming' that could just be at your death. Not orthodox at all.

 

[Breetai]

Many partial preterists believe that Jesus made a coming in AD 70, but it was not the second coming, they believe the second coming to be future.

Actually, it would be the second coming. Assuming that Jesus didn't come numerous times between 70 and at Armageddon, Armageddon is His 3rd coming.

Partial preterists believe then in the 3rd coming of Christ. That is not orthodox.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Many partial preterists believe that Jesus made a coming in AD 70, but it was not the second coming, they believe the second coming to be future.

This has no contradiction with the Nicene Creed.

But the entire early church seems to miss that Christ returned in 70 AD - and didn't say a word to that effect.

Yet, we have this from Justin Martyr:
Justin Martyr, ( 110-165 AD )Dialogue with Trypho:
“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(317) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” LXXX


Chapter LXXXI.-He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: `For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days.(318) For the young man shall be an hundred years old;(319) but the sinner who dies an hundred years old,(320) he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound.(321) Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.'(322) Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, `According to the days of the tree [of life(323) ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, `The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, '(324) is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell(325) a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, `They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'(326)

Hippolytus (tying Daniel, Deuteronomy and Revelation ):
For through the Scriptures we are instructed in two advents of the Christ and Saviour. And the first after the flesh was in humiliation, because He was manifested in lowly estate. So then His second advent is declared to be in glory; for He comes from heaven with power, and angels, and the glory of His Father. His first advent had John the Baptist as its forerun-her; and His second, in which He is to come in glory, will exhibit Enoch, and Elias, and John the Divine.(66) Behold, too, the Lord's kindness to man; how even in the last times He shows His care for mortals, and pities them. For He will not leave us even then without prophets, but will send them to us for our instruction and assurance, and to make us give heed to the advent of the adversary, as He intimated also of old in this Daniel. For he says, "I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed." For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times.(67) And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a "thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth; "(68) and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. "And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will."(69) And when they have proclaimed all these things they will fall on the sword, cut off by the accuser(70) . And they will fulfil their testimony, as Daniel also says; for he foresaw that the beast that came up out of the abyss would make war with them, namely with Enoch, Elias, and John, and would overcome them, and kill them, because of their refusal to give glory to the accuser. that is the little horn that sprang up.(71) And he, being lifted up in heart, begins in the end to, exalt himself and glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ.

The Muratorian Canon, c 170 - bold added:

“And so, though various elements(d) may be taught in the individual books of the Gospels, nevertheless this makes no difference to the faith of believers, since by the one sovereign(e) Spirit all things have been declared in all the Gospels: concerning the nativity, concerning the passion, concerning the resurrection, concerning life with his disciples, and concerning his twofold coming; the first in lowliness when he was despised, which has taken place, the second glorious in royal power, which is still in the future.”


I can't find one that states that Christ returned - or had a "coming" in 70 AD, only that judgment was sent on Jerusalem. As far as a future earthly kingdom, the apostles still beleived AFTER the resurrection of Christ and AFTER Christ shared the scriptures with them, as shown here:
Act 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over {a period of} forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act 1:4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," {He said,} "you heard of from Me;

Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Act 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Christ does not say "there will be no restoration of the kingdom to Israel"...but that they will not know the time.

And the author of Hebrews is aware of the "two-fold" coming:
Hbr 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Add this and more, like that Revelation was written in 95-96AD, I reject preterism which I see as a heresy.

 

[GW]

Breetai:
Partial preterists believe then in the 3rd coming of Christ. That is not orthodox.

GW:
Partial preterists affirm the future coming discussed in the Nicene Creed, but they also recoginze the other ways Christ comes to men:

THE COMING OF CHRIST, THE STONE OF JUDGMENT, AT AD 70:

Matthew 21:40-45
When the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. ...Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. ...The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous...And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


THE COMING OF CHRIST AT PENTECOST:

John 14:18-21
"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."


THE COMING OF CHRIST TO ASIA MINOR CHURCHES:

Revelation 1:1,3; 2:18,20-25
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand....To the angel of the church in Thyatira write...I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you...hold fast until I come.
​

None of these comings of Christ are the future Nicene coming to end the cosmos.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Breetai:
Partial preterists believe then in the 3rd coming of Christ. That is not orthodox.

GW:


Partial preterists affirm the future coming discussed in the Nicene Creed, but they also recoginze the other ways Christ comes to men:

THE COMING OF CHRIST AT PENTECOST:

John 14:18-21
"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."



​

You are taking this out of context to a degree. Christ also said this:

Jhn 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

Jhn 14:17 {that is} the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
​

Regarding this Helper, Christ said this:

Jhn 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Jhn 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.Jhn 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

I believe you are trying to get around the Nicene Creed with claiming a belief in a Second Coming...but actually make that Second coming a purely spiritual event, sucking the meaning out of the passages referring to it. You are creating multiple comings of Christ.

AND in doing that, I think you are playing fast and lose with the Trinity - one God in three persons. It is the third person of the Trinity who came at Pentecost. Jesus Christ, 100%God, 100%man was physically resurrected (I hope you believe that at least!) and physically ascended in His glorified body. When He comes again, it will be as when He left - in His glorified physical body - 100% God/100% glorified man.

 

[FreeinChrist]

THE COMING OF CHRIST TO ASIA MINOR CHURCHES:

Revelation 1:1,3; 2:18,20-25
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand....To the angel of the church in Thyatira write...I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you...hold fast until I come.

​

None of these comings of Christ are the future Nicene coming to end the cosmos.

And this was written in 96 AD - about 26 years AFTER the events of 70 AD.
The best meaning to these churches that I have found is that the churches represent periods of church history or types of churches.

 

[GW]

FREE:
The best meaning to these churches that I have found is that the churches represent periods of church history or types of churches.

GW:
That's a patently non-literal and unbiblical explanation. How could Jesus Christ have promised those literal, first-century Asia Minor churches that he would perform all those things at his coming to them, and then not do it? Note the specificity of things pertaining to those contemporary Churches that Jesus performed for them. Quite plainly, Jesus did for them what he promised at his coming to each of them back in the first century. Jesus Christ can be trusted to keep his word, and he made promises to those first-century Asia-Minor churches which he delivered by coming to them for the performance of those promises.

 

[MethodMan]

Better question: Where is Christ' Kingdom now?

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually, it would be the second coming. Assuming that Jesus didn't come numerous times between 70 and at Armageddon, Armageddon is His 3rd coming.

Partial preterists believe then in the 3rd coming of Christ. That is not orthodox.

No. He came to set up His kingdom, and is still reigning now. When He comes to judge, He will simply become visible, though He has not left us. Only 1 second coming