In defence of Chiliasm (or premillenialism)

[Iosias]

I restate GW: Shew me how Chiliasm is wrong?

 

[Iosias]

AV1611:
Literalism leads to premillenialism

GW:
Rather, inconsistent and unbiblical applications of literalism lead to premillennialism. Please give you literal rendition of the following verse:

Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars

Your question stems from misunderstanding what literalism is...the following is taken from a Bible study I have made:

How does the dispensationalist read the Bible?

The dispensationalist has a consistently literal method of Biblical interpretation. They give to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage. Sometimes called the grammatical-historical interpretation since the meaning of each word is determined by grammatical and historical considerations. Symbols and figurative language are interpreted plainly and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal or plain meaning that they convey to the reader.

 

[FreeinChrist]

First, there was no "rise of the RCC." Next, I have shown you that the premillennial view was started by the heretic Cerinthus, a person the Apostle John is reported to have called "that enemy of truth" (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28). The origin of the premillennial doctrine is tied to someone St. John considered a serious heretic.

While John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within." (Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28)
​

​

You should post the whole quote. THEN one could see that the doctrine that was heretical was Cerinthus' belief that the 1000 years was for sexual pleasures. There is the whole part about Cerinthus, and I will make some things bold:

• Chapter XXVIII. Cerinthus the Heresiarch.

1 We have understood that at this time Cerinthus,272 the author of another heresy, made his appearance. Caius, whose words we quoted above,273 in the Disputation which is ascribed to him, writes as follows concerning this man:

2 "But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy of the Scriptures of God, he asserts, with the purpose of deceiving men, that there is to be a period of a thousand years274 for marriage festivals."275

3 And Dionysius,276 who was bishop of the parish of Alexandria in our day, in the second book of his work On the Promises, where he says some things concerning the Apocalypse of John which he draws from tradition, mentions this same man in the following words:277

4 "But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one.

5 And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace."

6 These are the words of Dionysius. But Iranaeus, in the first book of his work Against Heresies,278 gives some more abominable false doctrines of the same man, and in the third book relates a story which deserves to be recorded. He says, on the authority of Polycarp, that the apostle John once entered a bath to bathe; but, learning that Cerinthus was within, he sprang from the place and rushed out of the door, for he could not bear to remain under the same roof with him. And he advised those that were with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall; for Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within."279

Now note who Eusebius is quoting - Iraneaus!!!! He was a futurist, GW, and opposed the allegorical interpretation. In his Against heresies, book V

• Chapter XXXV.-He Contends that These Testimonies Already Alleged Cannot Be Understood Allegorically of Celestial Blessings, But that They Shall Have Their Fulfilment After the Coming of Antichrist, and the Resurrection, in the Terrestrial Jerusalem. To the Former Prophecies He Subjoins Others Drawn from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apocalypse of John.

1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: "When the cities" of the Gentiles "shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate."317 "For, behold," says Isaiah, "the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it."318 And again he says, "Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God."319 And when these things are done, he says, "God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth."320 "And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves."321 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: "And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth," .....
(FYI - the word 'intercourse' here is not referring to sex but to conversation)


The disciples, after spending time with Christ after the Resurrection learning about what the scripture means, STILL asked just before Christ descended:
Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Christ did not say He wasn't ever going to do it, just said it wasn't for them to know the "times or the epoch":

Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;Act 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

 

[GW]

AV1611:
I restate GW: Shew me how Chiliasm is wrong?

GW:
Here's how we know the "1000 Years" of Rev 20 is a symbol and cannot be a true time period:

#1) Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15,17-18). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#2) The resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23), and that resurrection is of the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:1-2). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#3) It is on "the Last Day" that Jesus both raises to life (Jn 6:44,54) AND judges the wicked, (Jn 12:48). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#4) Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming (1 Thess 5:2-5); Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the passing of "heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10); Jesus says the Thief in the Night related to the first-century churches (Rev 3:2-3). As we see, no literal 1000 years can be made to fit in here anywhere. The New Heavens/Earth and Second Coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#5) Christ's reign isn't limited to 1000 years, nor are we still waiting for it to begin. Rather, It is eternal (Isa 9:6-7). He has been the King of Kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.

 

[GW]

DIONYSIUS:
"But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one."

CAIUS:
"But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth"



The doctrine of an earthly kingdom of Christ on earth was rejected by Dionysius, Caius, and Eusebius. They correctly attribute the origin of this erroneous doctrine to the arch heretic Cerinthus.

 

[parousia70]

[/indent]You should post the whole quote. THEN one could see that the doctrine that was heretical was Cerinthus' belief that the 1000 years was for sexual pleasures.

I thought you believed human sexual procreation continues during the millennium.

You don't?

 

[GW]

Correct, Parousia70.

Last I remember, the Cerinthians (premillennialists) believe marriages continue in the 1000 years. So why is Free in Christ acting like she rejects Cerinthus over this issue?

 

[FreeinChrist]

AV1611:
I restate GW: Shew me how Chiliasm is wrong?

GW:
Here's how we know the "1000 Years" of Rev 20 is a symbol and cannot be a true time period:

#1) Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15,17-18). Thus, premillennialism is false.

#2) The resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23), and that resurrection is of the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:1-2). Thus, premillennialism is false.

Same old arguement, GW. You are just taking very general descriptions of the resurrections and applying them over a later revelation given to John in 95 AD.
Example:

Act 24:14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;Act 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


This is just a very general statement about resurrection. The timing was not given until 95 AD.

#3) It is on "the Last Day" that Jesus both raises to life (Jn 6:44,54) AND judges the wicked, (Jn 12:48). Thus, premillennialism is false.

Same issue.
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
This is just a gurantee that we will be raised...no timing in regards to the just and the unjust.
Revelation is ALSO from Jesus Christ!

I hope that all reading your posts actually check the scripture you reference
to see if it actually applies to the arguement. It often does not.

#4) Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming (1 Thess 5:2-5); Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the passing of "heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10); Jesus says the Thief in the Night related to the first-century churches (Rev 3:2-3). As we see, no literal 1000 years can be made to fit in here anywhere. The New Heavens/Earth and Second Coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.

And yet, the Second Coming does not occur until the beast of Rev 13 arises with the help of 10 kings and rules for 42 months and the trumpet judgements and the vial judgements are held on earth....and the armies of the world are gathered at Har-megedon.
I stick with the belief that the day of the Lord starts with the opening of the first seal and will continue forever...through the tribulation period, the Second coming, the 1000 year reign, and then the new heavens and earth....onwards.

Peter was not given the Revelation, it was John in 95 AD - 30 years after Peter was martyred. He was not wrong at all...but gave limited information.

#5) Christ's reign isn't limited to 1000 years, nor are we still waiting for it to begin. Rather, It is eternal (Isa 9:6-7). He has been the King of Kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.

Christ is reigning over His church now...and is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High while God "make your enemies like a footstool under your feet." (Hebrews 1)

Christ will return, physically, in glory, to defeat the army gathered with the beast and false prophet, (Rev. 19) and set up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem (REv. 20, Isisah 2, Zechariah 12-14, Isaiah) - as the apostles expected in ACTS 1, and which Christ did not deny will occur at a given time known to God!

And after the 1000 years, a brief rebellion will be allowed...they will be defeated...( Rev. 20) and then there will be a new heavens and earth...and Christ will be reigning this entire time.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I thought you believed human sexual procreation continues during the millennium.

You don't?

Yes, actually I do for those who remained alive at the Second Coming and were righteous (1/3 of Israel)...but not that the millennium is for sexual pleasures.
I beleive this applies to the period:
Isa 2:2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.

Isa 2:5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Zec 14:5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, {and} all the holy ones with Him!

Zec 14:6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.

Zec 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

Zec 14:8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one.

Zec 14:10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.

Zec 14:11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.

Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.

Zec 14:15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

Zec 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.Zec 14:17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Zec 14:18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no {rain will fall} on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:20 In that day there will {be inscribed} on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Correct, Parousia70.

Last I remember, the Cerinthians (premillennialists) believe marriages continue in the 1000 years. So why is Free in Christ acting like she rejects Cerinthus over this issue?

I have never stated that the millennium was for sexual pleasure and any implication that I beleive as Cerenthus does here:

And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace."

is a blatant LIE.
I beleive the millennium is for the glory of God, a fulfillment of God's promise to Israel, a time when Christ is in Jerusalem and all mankind worships HIm and a time when the devil is shut away, unable to deceive the nations.

I will assume that is not your intent to lie about my beliefs.

 

[FreeinChrist]

DIONYSIUS:
"But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one."

CAIUS:
"But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth"



The doctrine of an earthly kingdom of Christ on earth was rejected by Dionysius, Caius, and Eusebius. They correctly attribute the origin of this erroneous doctrine to the arch heretic Cerinthus.

It was accepted by Justin Martyr and many more....but they did ot accept Cerinthus desire and teaching that it was for the sensual pleasures. They beleived it was for the glory of God!

AND NONE of them believed that the events of 70 AD fulfilled Revelation!!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

AND NONE of them believed that the events of 70 AD fulfilled Revelation!!

Could you cite the source of this?

 

[parousia70]

Yes, actually I do for those who remained alive at the Second Coming and were righteous (1/3 of Israel)...but not that the millennium is for sexual pleasures.

So, people will have sex in the millennium, but they will not enjoy it?

I beleive this applies to the period:.....

Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle......

This passage implies that this particular battle of Jehovah will be of a similar nature to all His previous battles.

Could you cite a few of those previous battles this passage harkens back to?

Zec 14:8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Aren't living waters already flowing, available in their absolute fulness to ALL who thirst today?

.......Zec 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

This aspect, among many others, of Your millennium view has always facinated me. You have human beings being required to render blood animal sacrifices directly to Jesus during the millennium.

This dosen't appear to speak to highly of the effecacy of Christ's once for all sacrifice on the cross.

perhaps you see no conflict? (you often don't)

 

[GW]

Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming. Thus, premillennialism is false:

Revelation 11:15,18
Then the seventh angel sounded... and thy wrath is come and THE TIME of the dead that they should be judged

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for an hour is coming in which all that are in the graves...shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
​

It is on "the Last Day" that Jesus both raises to life AND judges the wicked. Thus, premillennialism is false:

John 6:44,54
I will raise him up on the last day...I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day​

Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming; Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the passing of "heavens and Earth." Thus, premillennialism is false:

1 Thess 5:2-3
the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
​

He has been the King of Kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign over all Heaven and Earth. We are not waiting for Christ to reign. Thus, premillennialism is false:

Matt 28:18
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Rev 1:5
Jesus Christ...[who is] the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Peter 3:22
[Jesus] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Eph 1:20-21
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
​

Quite plainly, premillennialism is a falsification -- it is that abominable doctrine foisted upon the Church by arch heretic Cerinthus.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Regarding the heresy of Cerinthus, in Against Heresies:

Hippolytus, Refutation of all heresies:

• Chapter XXI.-The System of Cerinthus Concerning Christ.
  

But a certain Cerinthus,91 himself being disciplined in the teaching of the Egyptians, asserted that the world was not made by the primal Deity, but by some virtue which was an offshoot from that Power which is above all things, and which (yet) is ignorant of the God that is above all. And he supposed that Jesus was not generated from a virgin, but that he was born son of Joseph and Mary, just in a manner similar with the rest of men, and that (Jesus) was more just and more wise (than all the human race). And (Cerinthus alleges) that, after the baptism (of our Lord), Christ in form of a dove came down upon him, from that absolute sovereignty which is above all things. And then, (according to this heretic,) Jesus proceeded to preach the unknown Father,92 and in attestation (of his mission) to work miracles. It was, however, (the opinion of Cerinthus,) that ultimately Christ departed from Jesus, and that Jesus suffered and rose again; whereas that Christ, being spiritual,93 remained beyond the possibility of suffering.


Against Heresies,appendix, chapter III
After him brake out the heretic Cerinthus, teaching similarly. For he, too, says that the world45 was originated by those angels;46 and sets forth Christ as born of the seed of Joseph, contending that He was merely human, without divinity; affirming also that the Law was given by angels;47 representing the God of the Jews as not the Lord, but an angel.

Cerinthus was a sensualist who denied the virgin birth and the Incarnation. It wasn't that he took the belief (prevailing belief, IMHO) that the 1000 years referred to a literal earthly kingdom, but that the 1000 years would be for sensual pleasure.
Irenaeus never wrote that Justin Martyr was a heretic or taught heresy and he CLEARLY taught premillennialism!

 

[GW]

Cerinthus believed in MARRIAGE-RELATED sexual pleasure:

"...he asserts...that there is to be a period of a thousand years for marriage festivals.


"Cerinthus...dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying


Free, do you reject marriage pleasures in the so-called "thousand years"???

 

[GW]

Quite plainly, Dionysius and Caius rejected a literal earthly reign of Christ upon the earth:

DIONYSIUS:
"But (they say that) Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one."

CAIUS:
"But Cerinthus also, by means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth"
​

The doctrine of an earthly kingdom of Christ on earth was rejected by Dionysius, Caius, and Eusebius. They correctly attribute the origin of this erroneous doctrine to the arch heretic Cerinthus. Premillennialists are Cerinthians.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Free,

The verses plainly say what I claim. They plainly show that the 1000 years is not a literal period of time.



Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming. Thus, premillennialism is false:

Revelation 11:15,18
Then the seventh angel sounded... and thy wrath is come, and THE TIME of the dead that they should be judged

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for an hour is coming in which all that are in the graves...shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

​

Again, GW, you are using general statements to try and counter act a more specific Revelation from Jesus Christ about the resurrection of the dead. Rev. 11 is an announcement of future fact. HOW it is carried out is shown later in the Revelation.

It is on "the Last Day" that Jesus both raises to life AND judges the wicked. Thus, premillennialism is false:

John 6:44,54
I will raise him up on the last day...I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day
​

And the "last day" lasts for quite a while!!
Christ defeats the armies of the AC at the Second Coming - a future physical event - and fulfills the promises made to Isreal, and then after the 1000 years - the rest of the dead are raised and judged, Non of this conflicts with the other...unless you are trying to make it a past or ongoing event.

Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming; Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the passing of "heavens and Earth." Thus, premillennialism is false:

1 Thess 5:2-3
the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

​

And the Day of the Lord extends for quite a while! It starts with the opening of the seals....through the Second Coming and millennial reign..and the final brief rebellion and to the new heavens and new earth...which are not here yet!

I have already addressed this.

He has been the King of Kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign over all Heaven and Earth. We are not waiting for Christ to reign. Thus, premillennialism is false

Matt 28:18
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Rev 1:5
Jesus Christ...[who is] the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Peter 3:22
[Jesus] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Eph 1:20-21
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

​

Apparently you are not even reading what I wrote.
Yes, Christ is reigning over the church...but much of the world does not worship Him.
He will return again - a physical, glorious return to earth - to defeat the beast and false prophet and their armies, and will establish an earthly reign, like the apostles expected in ACTS 1... and will reign over the whole earth - all worshipping Him, then a brieif rebellion, which Satan loses...then a continuation of His reign in the new heavens and earth.

He always reigns. But He has not returned yet, GW.

Quite plainly, premillennialism is a falsification -- it is that abominable doctrine foisted upon the Church by arch heretic Cerinthus.

That is a lie.
A truly abominable heresy is the lie of preterism, and the denial of a future physical return of Christ in glory!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Could you cite the source of this?

The burden of proof lies with those who claim it (Revelation) was all fulfilled already.
NONE of the early church fathers believed it was and strongly beleived there was a future Second Coming, as it states in the Nicene Creed.
Irenaeus (120 - 202 AD), Against Heresies, book V:
Irenaeus:

Chapter XXVI.-

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."228 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them



Chapter XXVIII

2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness."242 For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire: "243 [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness; "whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse...

Chapter XXX



We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.


Epistle of Barnabus, written about 131 A.D.

Chapter IV.-Antichrist is at Hand: Let Us Therefore Avoid Jewish Errors.

It therefore behoves us, who inquire much concerning events at hand,(25) to search diligently into those things which are able to save us. Let us then utterly flee from all the works of iniquity, lest these should take hold of us; and let us hate the error of the present time, that we may set our love on the world to come: let us not give loose reins to our soul, that it should have power to run with sinners and the wicked, lest we become like them. The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch(26) says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings.(27) In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns."(28) Ye ought therefore to understand.



Hippolypus, regarding the future Antichrist, and ties the predictions of Moses, Daniel with Revelation :

XIX. ​

But seeing now that we must make proof of what is alleged at greater length, we shall not shrink from the task. For it is certain that he is destined to spring from the tribe of Dan,(59) and to range himself in opposition like a princely tyrant, a terrible judge and accuser,(60) as the prophet testifies when he says, "Dan shall judge his people, as one tribe in Israel."(61) But some one may say that this was meant of Samson, who sprang from the tribe of Dan, and judged his people for twenty years. That, however, was only partially made good in the case of Samson; but this shall be fulfilled completely in the case of Antichrist. For Jeremiah, too, speaks in this manner: "From Dan we shall hear the sound of the sharpness(62) of his horses; at the sound of the neighing(63) of his horses the whole land trembled."(64) And again, Moses says: "Dan is a lion's whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan."(65) And that no one may fall into the mistake of thinking that this is spoken of the Saviour, let him attend to this. "Dan," says he, "is a lion's whelp; "and by thus naming the tribe of Dan as the one whence the accuser is destined to spring, he made the matter in hand quite clear. For as Christ is born of the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist shall be born of the tribe of Dan. And as our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was spoken of in prophecy as a lion on account or His royalty and glory, in the same manner also has the Scripture prophetically described the accuser as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence.

XX. ​

For in every respect that deceiver seeks to make himself appear like the Son of God. Christ is a lion, and Antichrist is a lion. Christ is King of things celestial and things terrestrial, and Antichrist will be king upon earth. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; and he, too, will appear as a lamb, while he is a wolf within. The Saviour was circumcised, and he in like manner will appear in circumcision. The Saviour sent the apostles unto all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. Christ gathered together the dispersed sheep, and he in like manner will gather together the dispersed people of the Hebrews. Christ gave to those who believed on Him the honourable and life-giving cross, and he in like manner will give his own sign. Christ appeared in the form of man, and he in like manner will come forth in the form of man. Christ arose from among the Hebrews, and he will spring from among the Jews. Christ displayed His flesh like a temple, and raised it up on the third day; and he too will raise up again the temple of stone in Jerusalem. And these deceits fabricated by him will become quite intelligible to those who listen to us attentively, from what shall be set forth next in order.

XXI. ​

For through the Scriptures we are instructed in two advents of the Christ and Saviour. And the first after the flesh was in humiliation, because He was manifested in lowly estate. So then His second advent is declared to be in glory; for He comes from heaven with power, and angels, and the glory of His Father. His first advent had John the Baptist as its forerun-her; and His second, in which He is to come in glory, will exhibit Enoch, and Elias, and John the Divine.(66) Behold, too, the Lord's kindness to man; how even in the last times He shows His care for mortals, and pities them. For He will not leave us even then without prophets, but will send them to us for our instruction and assurance, and to make us give heed to the advent of the adversary, as He intimated also of old in this Daniel. For he says, "I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed." For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times.(67) (Note - the 70th week of Daniel!) And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a "thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth; "(68) and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. "And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will."(69) And when they have proclaimed all these things they will fall on the sword, cut off by the accuser(70) . And they will fulfil their testimony, as Daniel also says; for he foresaw that the beast that came up out of the abyss would make war with them, namely with Enoch, Elias, and John, and would overcome them, and kill them, because of their refusal to give glory to the accuser. that is the little horn that sprang up.(71) And he, being lifted up in heart, begins in the end to, exalt himself and glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ.

XXV. ​

And at first, indeed, that deceitful and lawless one, with crafty deceitfulness, will refuse such glory; but the men persisting, and holding by him, will declare him king. And thereafter he will be lifted up in heart, and he who was formerly gentle will become violent, and he who pursued love will become pitiless, and the humble in heart will become haughty and inhuman, and the hater of unrighteousness will persecute the righteous. Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings,-those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, "I shall make my covenant for one week,"(82) he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week-that is to say, for three years and a half-Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man's form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls.

Justin Martyr, ( 110-165 AD )Dialogue with Trypho: He spends a great deal of time showing what was required of Israel and why, and speaks of this present dispensation:

“Accordingly He(346) rested, i.e., ceased, when He came, after whom, in the times of this dispensation wrought out by Him amongst men,(347) it was requisite that such gifts should cease from you; and having received their rest in Him, should again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He imparts to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof.” LXXXVII



“For if one should wish to ask you why, since Enoch, Noah with his sons, and all others in similar circumstances, who neither were circumcised nor kept the Sabbath, pleased God, God demanded by other leaders, and by the giving of the law after the lapse of so many generations, that those who lived between the times of Abraham and of Moses be justified by circumcision, and that those who lived after Moses be justified by circumcision and the other ordinances-to wit, the Sabbath, and sacrifices, and libations,(360) and offerings;..” XCII



Regarding the future 1000 years dispensation:

“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(317) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” LXXX



Chapter LXXXI.-He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: `For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days.(318) For the young man shall be an hundred years old;(319) but the sinner who dies an hundred years old,(320) he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound.(321) Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.'(322) Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, `According to the days of the tree [of life(323) ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, `The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, '(324) is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell(325) a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, `They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'(326)



The ENTIRE early church missed the Second Coming if it occurred in 70 AD. I can't find any nonheretical early father who did not beleive in a future Second Coming. The earliest commentaries of Revealtion treated it as future. The burden of proof falls on those who claim otherwise.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Cerinthus believed in MARRIAGE-RELATED sexual pleasure:

"...he asserts...that there is to be a period of a thousand years for marriage festivals.


"Cerinthus...dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying


Free, do you reject marriage pleasures in the so-called "thousand years"???

You conveniently leave out this:
And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace."

"sacrifices and slaying of victims"? Please post when I ever advocated this, GW!

Delights of the belly refers to gluttony - please post where I ever advocated that, GW!

There is holy matrimony and there is what is discribed in that quote. I believe there will be building and growing and holy matrimony and births during the millennial reign - and that God is not against these things. Who said, " Go forth and procreate"??? It is the delighting in the sexual passion and food over God that is wrong, desiring the sensual over the spiritual that is wrong, and chiliasts Jusin Martyr, Irenaeus, and more never advocated "sacrifices and the slaying of victims" - the paganism of of Cerinthus! They never advocated that Jesus was not 100% God and 100% man, nor denied the virgin birth like the heretic Cerinthus.