In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

[ken777]

They certainly do, and if they have searched out someone to talk to I would assume it to be a private conversation. But the only one who can change people is the Holy Spirit.

It is good to seeing that understanding being expressed.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Is it actually true that a territory in Australia are trying to pass law that makes "preaching" illegal ????
(41 pages is a lot of material to read :-/ )

 

[Paidiske]

Is it actually true that a part territory in Australia are trying to pass law that makes "preaching" illegal ????
(41 pages is a lot of material to read :-/ )

No. It is completely untrue and a gross misrepresentation of what this legislation is about.

 

[ken777]

Is it actually true that a territory in Australia are trying to pass law that makes "preaching" illegal ????
(41 pages is a lot of material to read :-/ )

It depends on the context - churches are allowed to teach their doctrine but the Commissioner has said that groups for SSA people who are encouraged to change or suppress their sexual feelings will be illegal

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

No. It is completely untrue and a gross misrepresentation of what this legislation is about.

It sounded a little extreme.

Why the embellishment?? If "preaching" hasn't been outlawed, why say it's so??

 

[dms1972]

Well, given that just about everything I could find in a quick search treated reparative and conversion therapies as interchangeable terms, there might be some misunderstanding possible if, for example, one advertised reparative therapy.


The litmus test is this: are you trying to change someone's sexual orientation? If the answer is yes, it'll be illegal under this law. If the answer is no, then it won't.

I agree and its increasingly the case now that therapists are careful about speaking simplistically of "cures" for anything. This why we need some clearer definitions because there is misinformation abroad and we should not be party to spreading that if we can help it. In most psychotherapy the client sets their goals - a therapist would not force someone to set goals outside the clients value or belief system. No reparative therapists as I understand the current state of that discipline try to force any change of sexual orientation. There is a huge world of difference between converting someone and supporting someone at a particular stage in their life, supporting them in their own explorations of what is or isn't possible for them, by not invalidating a persons hopes or aspirations.

Reparative therapy as I understand it is no different to other psychotherapies which aim "to improve an individual's well-being and mental health, to resolve or mitigate troublesome behaviors, beliefs, compulsions, thoughts, or emotions, and to improve relationships and social skills."

 

[Paidiske]

Why the embellishment?? If "preaching" hasn't been outlawed, why say it's so??

Indeed. There's been a lot of misinformation and scare-mongering about this legislation, but in fact its scope is quite narrowly defined and has been carefully balanced against freedom of religion.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

It depends on the context - churches are allowed to teach their doctrine but the Commissioner has said that groups for SSA people who are encouraged to change or suppress their sexual feelings will be illegal

So that's not "preaching". Preaching can be a lot of different things.

The post sounded like the whole of christian faith was being outlawed and "persecuted" !!!

 

[ken777]

No, that is not my position. My position is that help has to be real help; not a pretence at help, offering the impossible through harmful methods.

IOW, any approach you do not approve of should be banned, no matter what some people with SSA might want.

It's one thing to want to control one's sexual feelings. It's another thing to want to change one's sexual orientation. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by "reversal" of one's feelings, but if so, we have no method of achieving that.

This is getting a bit boring - there is no psychological method that can reverse sexual orientation but there is divine intervention than can. I thought we'd covered that.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Indeed. There's been a lot of misinformation and scare-mongering about this legislation, but in fact its scope is quite narrowly defined and has been carefully balanced against freedom of religion.

I hope christians don't engage in embellishing of this nature. That falsehood won't sit well - very foolish to overstate.

 

[ken777]

So that's not "preaching". Preaching can be a lot of different things.

The post sounded like the whole of christian faith was being outlawed and "persecuted" !!!

Well, evangelical pastors who believe God can change people could be sent to prison for a maximum of 10 years - I think that might qualify as persecution.

 

[Paidiske]

IOW, any approach you do not approve of should be banned, no matter what some people with SSA might want.

No. There are lots of things I don't approve of which I'm quite content not to see banned.

However, I support this ban, not because I do not approve of conversion therapy, but because of its objectively demonstrated ineffectiveness and harmfulness.

This is getting a bit boring - there is no psychological method that can reverse sexual orientation but there is divine intervention than can.

Then this ban should be no issue. No law can prevent or penalise divine intervention.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Well, evangelical pastors who believe God can change people could be sent to prison for a maximum of 10 years - I think that might qualify as persecution.

I'm finding this nearly impossible to believe. The govt search out evangelical preachers, then find out what they believe, and if they believe that "God can change a person" - they go to jail for 10 years ??

Just that simple - you believe it, you go to jail !!

 

[ken777]

I'm finding this nearly impossible to believe. The govt search out evangelical preachers, then find out what they believe, and if they believe that "God can change a person" - they go to jail for 10 years ??
Just that simple - you believe it, you go to jail !!

This has been a long thread so we're not going into detail on what has been covered before - but if a pastor counsels a person that the Bible teaches homosexuality is sinful and that, with God's help, they should try to suppress their SSA, the law will be triggered.

 

[ken777]

No. There are lots of things I don't approve of which I'm quite content not to see banned. However, I support this ban, not because I do not approve of conversion therapy, but because of its objectively demonstrated ineffectiveness and harmfulness.

which is what I said - what you don't approve of should be banned no matter what some people with SSA might want

Then this ban should be no issue. No law can prevent or penalise divine intervention.

Disingenuous. God has placed people in the Church with helping skills and they are placed there to support a person who wants to pursue goals related to change or suppression.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

... if a pastor counsels a person that the Bible teaches homosexuality is sinful and that, with God's help, they should try to suppress their SSA, the law will be triggered.

OK - So it's not even close to the title post. I thought it was a bit extreme, especially for australia. Is the above an example of the type of thing that triggers the law, or is the above the only thing

It's far from "criminalise preaching". (Which would be preaching in it's entirety).

You then specified the type of thing the law triggers:
"...churches ... allowed ... teach ... doctrine but ... (not to) encourage (a change of) sexual feelings / suppress sexual feelings...
So they are allowed to preach and teach. They are pretty free it seems (at least as you read it) until I see this...

evangelical pastors who believe God can change people ... could ... prison ... max ... 10 years

This bit here is what draws my attention. These 2 conditions being met:
1) Evangelical pastor
2) Believe God can change people
Result possible: 10 Years prison.

a) So to clarify, it's not the teaching and preaching, it's the combination of 1) Evangelical pastor and 2) a general belief that God can change people.??

b) Or is it the Pastor telling someone they ought suppress their homosexual attraction (get God to help)??

 

[ken777]

OK - So it's not even close to the title post. I thought it was a bit extreme, especially for australia.

It's far from "criminalise preaching". (Which would be preaching in it's entirety).

You then specified the type of thing the law triggers:
"...churches ... allowed ... teach ... doctrine but ... (not to) encourage (a change of) sexual feelings / suppress sexual feelings...
So they are allowed to preach and teach. They are pretty free it seems (at least as you read it) until I see this...

This bit here is what draws my attention. These 2 conditions being met:
1) Evangelical pastor
2) Believe God can change people
Result possible: 10 Years prison.

So to clarify, it's not the teaching and preaching, it's the combination of 1) Evangelical pastor and 2) a general belief that God can change people.??

I am an evangelical Christian so that is my main focus, but I know Catholics who will be affected by this law also - not so much the Uniting Church (Methodist, etc) or Anglican who tend to support the law.

Evangelicals believe the Biblical understanding of sexuality - we also believe that we have a responsibility to try to help people (without imposing on them) according to our beliefs. So sharing those beliefs with those who ask for help, and supporting their goal of changing or suppressing their SSA, encouraging them by prayer & counseling, could result in a maximum prison sentence of 10 years.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I am an evangelical Christian so that is my main focus, but I know Catholics who will be affected by this law also - not so much the Uniting Church (Methodist, etc) or Anglican who tend to support the law.

Evangelicals believe the Biblical understanding of sexuality - we also believe that we have a responsibility to try to help people (without imposing on them) according to our beliefs. So sharing those beliefs with those who ask for help, and supporting their goal of changing or suppressing their SSA, encouraging them by prayer & counseling, could result in a maximum prison sentence of 10 years.

So it's not actually: 1) Evangelical pastor & 2) Believe God can change people.
It was probably an error to embellish the gravity of the situation by overstating the laws reach.

Caught in the heat of the moment I assume. I do that sometimes too.

 

[SilverBear]

I'm still waiting for you to show me a false statement.

Did i say that Jacinta Price was a racist? No, I didn't. Yet you stuck it out there.
Did i think for one second you would be honest about that? No, I didn't

 

[ken777]

So it's not actually: 1) Evangelical pastor & 2) Believe God can change people.
It was probably an error to embellish the gravity of the situation by overstating the laws reach.

Caught in the heat of the moment I assume. I do that sometimes too.

There was no embellishment - those things are crucial aspects of the situation - if anything it was 'under-embellishment' - this has been a long thread and it should be safe to assume people will read up some of the previous comments to get the context of what is being said.