In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

[FutureAndAHope]

In Victoria (Australia), the Andrews Government is trying to pass laws that will make it a criminal offence to try to convert a gay to a heterosexual lifestyle. The law specifically mentions prayer and religious practices. The way the law is worded allows for the prosecution and re-educating of people who try with or without the consent of the individual to help a gay become straight. The following video explains the law and its potential effects on the church.

To see the law:

https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/591143bab1.pdf

The law bans practices that try to convert gays, and gives fines, heavy fines to people found to have caused harm to an individual during such a practice. Up to $500,000 or 10 years jail (serious harm). More commonly $100,000 or 5 years jail (general harm). However, the definition of harm, is broad, encompassing parents continual disapproval of onces choice, and mental health issues.

It would not be hard for a gay activist to claim harm, which can be short term harm, to mental health.

Advertising material is referenced in the bill, so basically it could be a criminal offense to have a website that encouraged the heterosexual lifestyle for a gay person. This is all under the banner of protecting the rights of gays to feel included, but it targets the church for condenation.

 

[parousia70]

This is all under the banner of protecting the rights of gays to feel included, but it targets the church for *condemnation.

That's probably because "the Church" is the only entity that thinks its their business to mandate what otherwise free people choose to do with their private parts.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That's probably because "the Church" is the only entity that thinks its their business to mandate what otherwise free people choose to do with their private parts.

People are free to obey God period. It is not the church's role to enforce what people do in the bedroom, but it is our job to gently correct those who disobey God in the church and to direct sinners to Christ.

The above laws seeks to prevent any kind of conversion practice.

 

[tall73]

That's probably because "the Church" is the only entity that thinks its their business to mandate what otherwise free people choose to do with their private parts.

(1) In this Act, a change or suppression practicemeans a practice or conduct directed towards a person, whether with or without the person's consent— 5 (a) on the basis of the person's sexual orientation or gender identity; and(b) for the purpose of— (i) changing or suppressing the sexual orientation or gender identity of the 10 person; or(ii) inducing the person to change or suppress their sexual orientation or gender identity.


Apparently they want to eliminate such options even to those who voluntarily seek such services, which would deal with freedom to do what you want with ones private parts.

 

[parousia70]

(1) In this Act, a change or suppression practicemeans a practice or conduct directed towards a person, whether with or without the person's consent— 5 (a) on the basis of the person's sexual orientation or gender identity; and(b) for the purpose of— (i) changing or suppressing the sexual orientation or gender identity of the 10 person; or(ii) inducing the person to change or suppress their sexual orientation or gender identity.
Apparently they want to eliminate such options even to those who voluntarily seek such services, which would deal with freedom to do what you want with ones private parts.

Seems very poorly written.... I admittedly don't know enough about Australian law and politics to make any sort of educated guess as to whether or not it will pass legal scrutiny there... but again, seems very poorly written, but appears also to ban Gays trying to convert straight people to be gay... no?

 

[parousia70]

People are free to obey God period. It is not the church's role to enforce what people do in the bedroom, but it is our job to gently correct those who disobey God in the church and to direct sinners to Christ.

The above laws seeks to prevent any kind of conversion practice.

Got it.
So I wonder how you define "gently" and if these conversion therapy practices would fall under that "gentle" umbrella in your view:

"Techniques used in conversion therapy in the United States and Western Europe have included ice-pick lobotomies; chemical castration with hormonal treatment; aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals"; "nausea-inducing drugs ... administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli"; and masturbatory reconditioning."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Got it.
So I wonder how you define "gently" and if these conversion therapy practices would fall under that "gentle" umbrella in your view:

"Techniques used in conversion therapy in the United States and Western Europe have included ice-pick lobotomies; chemical castration with hormonal treatment; aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals"; "nausea-inducing drugs ... administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli"; and masturbatory reconditioning."

The church does not use such practices, I have been in church life for my whole life, and those things are unthinkable. Those practices were considered "normal" in the time they were used and were a part of secular (not church) medical treatments.

I could get very angry with you, that you would prefer to stand up for homosexual laws, rather than for God. It is an abomination in the eyes of God.

 

[parousia70]

The church does not use such practices, I have been in church life for my whole life, and those things are unthinkable. Those practices were considered "normal" in the time they were used and were a part of secular (not church) medical treatments.

Glad to hear that.

I could get very angry with you, that you would prefer to stand up for homosexual laws, rather than for God. It is an abomination in the eyes of God.

Well, I suppose you could, but you would only cause yourself grief if you did.

What Homosexual Laws are you referring to? I didn't know there were any.

I believe all people should be treated equally under the law.

Does not this proposed law also ban Gays from Converting straight people to homosexuality?

I don't se anywhere in the law that says it is a one way ban. Do you?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Seems very poorly written.... I admittedly don't know enough about Australian law and politics to make any sort of educated guess as to whether or not it will pass legal scrutiny there... but again, seems very poorly written, but appears also to ban Gays trying to convert straight people to be gay... no?

No the very opposite, the legislation is written in such a way that it is a one-way street. Gay are "allowed to encourage gay practices", but a Christain may not convert gays. The law specifically states that gay services are encouraged, and reverse conversion discouraged.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Glad to hear that.



Well, I suppose you could, but you would only cause yourself grief if you did.

What Homosexual Laws are you referring to? I didn't know there were any.

I believe all people should be treated equally under the law.

Does not this proposed law also ban Gays from Converting straight people to homosexuality?

I don't se anywhere in the law that says it s a one way ban. Do you?

It is a one way street:

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), a practice or conduct is not a change or suppression practice if it— (a) is supportive of or affirms a person's gender identity or sexual orientation including, but 20 not limited to, a practice or conduct for the purposes of— (i) assisting a person who is undergoing a gender transition; or (ii) assisting a person who is considering 25 undergoing a gender transition; or (iii) assisting a person to express their gender identity; or (iv) providing acceptance, support or understanding of a person; or 30 (v) facilitating a person's coping skills, social support or identity exploration and development; or

 

[parousia70]

No the very opposite, the legislation is written in such a way that it is a one-way street. Gay are "allowed to encourage gay practices", but a Christain may not convert gays. The law specifically states that gay services are encouraged, and reverse conversion discouraged.

Where is the part about encouraging gay practices?
and what does that mean exactly?

Here's the portion I'm referring to, quoted above:

1) In this Act, a change or suppression practicemeans a practice or conduct directed towards a person, whether with or without the person's consent— 5 (a) on the basis of the person's sexual orientation or gender identity; and(b) for the purpose of— (i) changing or suppressing the sexual orientation or gender identity of the 10 person; or(ii) inducing the person to change or suppress their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Where exactly do you read in the above that this does not apply to ANY attempt to change ANYONE'S Sexual orientation or gender Identity?

Again, I find myself completely unconcerned with where other people choose to put their private parts, and find the sexually charged obsession with needing to regulate it quite curious, and actually a little creepy.

 

[rjs330]

That's probably because "the Church" is the only entity that thinks its their business to mandate what otherwise free people choose to do with their private parts.

Mandate? I don't believe the church is trying to mandate anything. People are free to obey or disobey God at their will. How does a church preaching righteousness or telling people they are sinners mandate anything? How does praying for a person mandate anything?

 

[Paidiske]

We need to be honest with ourselves about this; this law is coming about because of the widespread and ongoing conversion practices which do severe harm to people. The law is stepping in to ask the church not to do things which have been shown to be both futile and harmful.

We shouldn't need the law to do that, but nor should we treat it as some major issue if it does, because we shouldn't be engaging in conversion therapy, anyway.

 

[parousia70]

Mandate? I don't believe the church is trying to mandate anything. People are free to obey or disobey God at their will. How does a church preaching righteousness or telling people they are sinners mandate anything? How does praying for a person mandate anything?

None of that does.
But that’s not what happens in “conversion therapy”

 

[SilverBear]

(1) In this Act, a change or suppression practicemeans a practice or conduct directed towards a person, whether with or without the person's consent— 5 (a) on the basis of the person's sexual orientation or gender identity; and(b) for the purpose of— (i) changing or suppressing the sexual orientation or gender identity of the 10 person; or(ii) inducing the person to change or suppress their sexual orientation or gender identity.


Apparently they want to eliminate such options even to those who voluntarily seek such services, which would deal with freedom to do what you want with ones private parts.

Services that are neither safe or effective.

The government bans medications that cause harm, are they wrong for doing that?

 

[SilverBear]

Got it.
So I wonder how you define "gently" and if these conversion therapy practices would fall under that "gentle" umbrella in your view:

"Techniques used in conversion therapy in the United States and Western Europe have included ice-pick lobotomies; chemical castration with hormonal treatment; aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals"; "nausea-inducing drugs ... administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli"; and masturbatory reconditioning."

the techniques are twisted and harmful by anyone's standards.

“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. Parents are pushed to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014

this "therapy" is used on children as young as age three

 

[Paidiske]

This report is some helpful background to the development of this piece of legislation:

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...8/LGBT+conversion+therapy+in+Australia+v2.pdf

 

[rjs330]

None of that does.
But that’s not what happens in “conversion therapy”

A person is not mandated to take conversion therapy. I don't know if conversion therapy is valid or not. I don't know a lot about it. But I also don't think it's mandated anywhere either. I do know that the practice of homosexuality is a sin and there have been people that have been delivered from it. Homosexuality is a hideous infliction that is a deep seated condition. One that is very difficult for people to gain freedom from. And I don't believe it's because they are any more evil than anyone else. They are not. They are enslaved by something and more often than not it's because something happened to them to lead them down that path. God loves them and wants them free from the slavery. Just as he wants us all free from the slavery of sin.

 

[rjs330]

the techniques are twisted and harmful by anyone's standards.

“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. Parents are pushed to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014

this "therapy" is used on children as young as age three

That's disgusting. People are not rescued from sin by beating the and kicking them. They are rescued by the power of God and Christ in their lives.

 

[SilverBear]

That's disgusting.

yes it is