In an Instant = Forever

[crossnote]

First... I was not "playing gotch", I asked the question because
the BIBLE says people who are "born again" show the "fruit"
of sanctification and YOUR TESTIMONY was that you spent
two years living as bad (or worse) than before.

I take it you never did fruit orchard work. The Bible says we are to GROW in grace, we are not perfect when saved.

So it is not ME that is looking foolish.
You are the one who said you did not repent
AFTER you were "born again".

I repented after I came to a sufficient knowledge of my sin and a sufficient knowledge of who Jesus is.
I guess God made you one of His special fruit inspectors?
Even Christians need to repent daily, but I guess you are above all that?

As I said before, I am not questioning your salvation BUT
your "testimony" does not harmonize with what the BIBLE
teaches about the sanctification that follows conversion.

I couldn't care less of your faulty assessment of my testimony. Many questioned Paul's conversion...nothing new here. God knows.

 

[5thKingdom]

I take it you never did fruit orchard work. The Bible says we are to GROW in grace, we are not perfect when saved..

Right... and that growth/sanctification BEGINS at regeneration,
not several years later. Just saying what the BIBLE teaches.

.

 

[crossnote]

Right... and that growth/sanctification BEGINS at regeneration,
not several years later. Just saying what the BIBLE teaches.

.

I already said I did grow in the knowledge of our Lord, it just took a period of time until I became fully convinced that Jesus was truly the Son of God and that His death was for my sins. I had no Church teaching even after regeneration until about 13 months later.
It even took time for the Galatians...

Galatians 4:19 (KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[Behold]

Jesus would strongly disagree!

John 6:44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Doug

Jesus said, "if i be lifted up, i'll draw all men to me"...

Do all men respond?

So, those who respond are born again, those who do not, are : John 3:36

 

[5thKingdom]

And i guess you also didn't "hear it", when Jesus said, "if i be LIFTED UP, i will draw all men to myself"..

So, are you familiar with the term "alter call"?

It seem you are not familiar with a lot you need to know.

You think men are saved by making an alter call?
Really? That is hilarious. ONE WORK salvation gospel.

I am not surprised... only surprised you admit your heresy
publicly and without any shame.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Jesus would strongly disagree!

John 6:44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Last I knew, "no one" has no exceptions. I'm curious, what is your theological position/alignment? I ask, because Calvinism would say the drawing is the very means that God uses to irresistibly call the Elect to salvation, and your comments would indicated that you would disagree with such a notion, so I'm curious as to where you are on the theological spectrum.

Doug

Doug, he believes in an altar call salvation plan.

From Post #15


And i guess you also didn't "hear it", when Jesus said, "if i be LIFTED UP, i will draw all men to myself"..

So, are you familiar with the term "alter call"?

It seem you are not familiar with a lot you need to know.

.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus said, "if i be lifted up, i'll draw all men to me"...

Do all men respond?

So, those who respond are born again, those who do not, are : John 3:36

Those who come when drawn are born again! I guess your not going to tell me what theological position you're coming from.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug, he believes in an altar call salvation plan.

From Post #15


And i guess you also didn't "hear it", when Jesus said, "if i be LIFTED UP, i will draw all men to myself"..

So, are you familiar with the term "alter call"?

It seem you are not familiar with a lot you need to know.

.

Well so do I, but I don't think one is born again before they are drawn.

Doug

PS By an alter call salvation plan, I do not mean that one must go to an altar to be saved or respond to an altar call in a church service. I just mean that we often extend an opportunity for people to respond to the leading of the Spirit to respond.

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

PS By an alter call salvation plan, I do not mean....
Doug

From the OP (in red below)
Is THAT what you thinks happens in salvation?

Generally speaking (except for cases like the thief on the cross)
This is NOT the process I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the Bible teaches
a period of being "drawn", of recognizing the righteousness of God, or realizing
our depravity - and that we DESERVE to go to hell, and then crying for mercy.

I consider the "altar call" theology (expressed below) to be a "works gospel"...
just as I consider the "sinner's prayer" theology (taught by Billy Graham and son)
to be nothing but a "works gospel".

Jim

The day we are saved........the very day before, what were we doing?
Were you living for God the day before you were saved? NO. You were enjoying SIN.
What does this tell us? It tells us that on Saturday we are sinning and enjoying it,
and on our way to HELL. Then the very next day... THe VERY....>NEXT DAY.....
We hear the Gospel, we kneel at the Cross and are BORN AGAIN.

.

 

[Behold]

You think men are saved by making an alter call?
Really? That is hilarious. ONE WORK salvation gospel.
I am not surprised... only surprised you admit your heresy
publicly and without any shame.

.

The "alter call" does not save anyone.
Its the Gospel message received that is mixed with Faith, that God accepts to then SAVE a person. = born again.
This can happen during an "alter call", or in your car, or on your deathbed.
God is looking inside us all the time. God knows the thoughts and INTENT of our Heart.
So, when an unbeliever TRUSTS in the Gospel Truth, the message of the Gospel, then God SEES their FAITH, and they are then "Justified by Faith".....born again.

"Grace THROUGH Faith" without works.

 

[Behold]

Those who come when drawn are born again! I guess your not going to tell me what theological position you're coming from.

Doug

Yes, as i said. The Holy Spirit convicts, (draws) a person to the Cross.
They hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit reveals this TRUTH to their heart and they then receive Christ or not.

What Theological Position am i?

Pauline Theology, only.

 

[5thKingdom]

The "alter call" does not save anyone.
Its the Gospel message received that is mixed with Faith, that God accepts to then SAVE a person. = born again.
This can happen during an "alter call", or in your car, or on your deathbed.
God is looking inside us all the time. God knows the thoughts and INTENT of our Heart.
So, when an unbeliever TRUSTS in the Gospel Truth, the message of the Gospel, then God SEES their FAITH, and they are then "Justified by Faith".....born again.

"Grace THROUGH Faith" without works.

You say "God SEES their FAITH"...
Man, you are just scary naive.


WHERE do you imagine that "faith" comes from?
It is a GIFT of God. Not a personal "decision" of man
as you preached in your "ONE DAY" conversion fantasy.
It is not something that COMES FROM MAN (so that they
could boast about what a wise decision they have made)


God does not SEE their faith... God GIVES them faith.
This is Christian theology 101 buddy, why in the world
is it "news" to you?


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith is]
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works,
lest any man should boast.


Secondly, while I do not dispute there are RARE occasions
where someone is saved in a short period of time... like the
thief on the cross or a deathbed conversion, those are NOT
the norm and you embarrass yourself pretending otherwise.


I already EXPLAINED the normal process of God "drawing"
a person... apparently you have a challenge with English
(as your writing skills demonstrate). The normal process
involves God "drawing" a person so that they (1) become
interested in the Bible, (2) start reading the Bible, they see
(3) how righteous God is and (4) how depraved they are,
(5) they understand that they DESERVE to go to hell and
(6) they begin to cry out for mercy. This process normally
takes days or weeks or months (or years). It's VERY RARE
for it to happen in one day... which you PRETEND is the norm.


Which is WHY the false "works gospels" of saying the
"sinner's prayer" or making an altar call or receiving
water baptism or "inviting" Jesus into your heart or
repenting of some sins or "accepting" Jesus... are all
false gospels based on the WORKS of men. They
are examples of the heresy of Arminianism and have
been declared heresy for hundreds of years... before
that they were known as "Semi Palagianism" and was
declared as heresy by the early church... why is this
all "news" to you?


It is news to you because you preach a false "works gospel"
where you teach ONE DAY we are loving our sin and BAM!
the next day we are saved... that is an exception to the
rule of how the PROCESS of salvation works. And, again,
you embarrass yourself by not knowing better.


Just like someone who CLAIMS to be saved ("indwelt") and
lives a worldly life is embarrassing themselves and mocking
what the Bible teaches in HOW you are saved and WHAT is
the "fruit" which is evidence of salvation.


BTW... least you think this is a small matter please understand
that HERESY is one of the signs of those NOT REALLY SAVED.
But, again, this is "news" to you.


Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry,
witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions,
heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and
such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you
in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit
the kingdom of God.


BTW... the picture on your avatar is an example of idolatry.
We are NOT supposed to make images of God or Christ...
but again, this is "news" to you.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

So, when an unbeliever TRUSTS in the Gospel Truth, the message of the Gospel, then God SEES their FAITH, and they are then "Justified by Faith".....born again."Grace THROUGH Faith" without works.

You are just hilarious...

First you say the unbeliever TRUSTS and then they have FAITH
and then God sees this (what they have done) and saves them.

Then you are so delusional as to think that TRUST and FAITH
are not WORKS... after proclaiming they come from unsaved men.


.

 

[TibiasDad]

You are just hilarious...

First you say the unbeliever TRUSTS and then they have FAITH
and then God sees this (what they have done) and saves them.

Then you are so delusional as to think that TRUST and FAITH
are not WORKS... after proclaiming they come from unsaved men.


.

Scripture is quite clear that we are saved if we believe (present tense, active voice); no scripture says you must be given faith to be born again! Belief is a spiritual and mentally inward action, and cannot be helped any more than realizing that you found an answer to a question you've been searching for. True belief will produce an appropriate response of action, repentance, confession, etc.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

From the OP (in red below)
Is THAT what you thinks happens in salvation?

Generally speaking (except for cases like the thief on the cross)
This is NOT the process I believe the Bible teaches. I believe the Bible teaches
a period of being "drawn", of recognizing the righteousness of God, or realizing
our depravity - and that we DESERVE to go to hell, and then crying for mercy.

I consider the "altar call" theology (expressed below) to be a "works gospel"...
just as I consider the "sinner's prayer" theology (taught by Billy Graham and son)
to be nothing but a "works gospel".

Jim

The day we are saved........the very day before, what were we doing?
Were you living for God the day before you were saved? NO. You were enjoying SIN.
What does this tell us? It tells us that on Saturday we are sinning and enjoying it,
and on our way to HELL. Then the very next day... THe VERY....>NEXT DAY.....
We hear the Gospel, we kneel at the Cross and are BORN AGAIN.

.

Again, I say that the Bible puts the action of believing squarely on man's shoulders. We must "come" and we must "follow" and we must "obey his commands". All of these are evidences of our trusting in the promises of God.

The "works theology" argument you and others with a more Reform bent to their thinking employ is a sham and a bunch of strawman blather with zero teeth with which to bite. God is sovereign, and cannot be obligated by anything other than the integrity of his own words. Nothing man could ever do can obligate God to act positively toward man.

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

no scripture says you must be given faith to be born again!

Your words are nonsense, as shown in the verse below.
Even "babes in Christ" understand this reality:
So your statement above is just a lie.


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


If man's "belief" or man's "faith" resulted in salvation then
they could correctly boast to all the unsaved that they
were just not wise enough to DO THE WORK that
would save them... and that is ridiculous when
men are "chosen" before the world began,
"election" is not based on any work.


---------


Of course, the PROBLEM for people pretending that they
are saved through some WORK they do is that it is a false
gospel (a heresy) that is not supported by ALL RELATED
SCRIPTURE.


Can you find a couple of verses that seem to teach WORKS
saves you? Of course you can because ALL HERESIES are
based on a couple of Scriptures... otherwise the lie would
immediately be rejected. Good lies require a little truth.


There are passages that SEEM to teach that water baptism
results in salvation. However that work does not save and
(while churches or denominations are based on that heresy)
that work does NOT obligate God to save... and the doctrine
is contradicted by dozens of other Scriptures. Hell will be full
of people who were baptized.


The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of
ALL RELATED Scriptures.


The Bible is clear (in many many Scriptures) that salvation
is NOT because of any WORK of man and that God elected
who He would save before the foundation of the world and
that He chose His elect without ANYTHING they would do.


Therefore, any "gospel" that teaches the WORK of men is
required for salvation is a false "works gospel" (a heresy).
And this is important because the Bible PROMISES that
heretics shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God [Gal 5:20]


These WORKS include men saying a "sinner's prayer", or
men making an altar call, or men taking water baptism, or
men deciding to "believe", or men repenting of sins, or men
deciding to put "faith" in God, or men inviting Jesus into their
hearts or ANY OTHER WORK (for which men could boast).


People who believe they are saved because of a WORK
listed above (or any other work of man) are heretics,
who are following "another gospel" than Christ's.


Of course this is easily PROVEN in Scriptures that declare
that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father FIRST
"draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"
to Jesus - and He will lose NONE of those drawn by God.


Election is simply NOT the result of any work of men.
That heresy has been recognized since the Apostles,
and heretics "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God"


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 9:16
So then it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.


So you can preach that salvation IS A WORK of men who
"willeth" or men who "runneth"... but you are only fooling
yourself... as you knowingly contradict many Scriptures.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Again, I say that the Bible puts the action of believing squarely on man's shoulders. We must "come" and we must "follow" and we must "obey his commands". All of these are evidences of our trusting in the promises of God.
Doug

You are correct that we must "come"... but then you REJECT
Scriptures that say NO MAN can come (unless "drawn"), and
ALL MEN who are drawn "shall come". So you knowingly
contradict Scripture in order to design your own
salvation program. Nothing new here.


You are correct that we must "believe" and we must "follow"
and we must "obey"... but you intentionally IGNORE all of the
Scripture that teach those actions are NOT WORKS of man,
they are only possible for those God has "elected".


This is not new. When the disciples realized that Jesus was
teaching salvation by election many of them immediately
abandoned Him [John 6:65-66]


Now, why in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
Of course the answer is obvious. They (like you and most men)
wanted a salvation plan were God was NOT sovereign.


They wanted a salvation plan were MEN are sovereign.
Where MEN decide when/where/how to save themselves.
Again, you can design whatever salvation plan you want...
but that does NOT mean it will save you. It cannot save you.


When you say..."God puts the action of (whatever) squarely
on mans shoulders"... you conveniently IGNORE all of the
passages that declare NO MAN will seek God, no, not one.


So you are faced with contradiction... which is that the Bible
declares men must do x and y and z... and you simply decide
to IGNORE the Scriptures that say men cannot do x and y and z
UNLESS God "draws" them and works through His Spirit to allow
them to do x and y and z. (and ALL God "draws" will come)


Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do
of his good pleasure.


Whether you realize it or not, when you say (and I quote you)
"..the Bible puts the action of believing squarely on man's shoulders."
you are only telling HALF of the story. The other HALF which you
(and most men) want to IGNORE is the Bible ALSO teaches that
NO MAN (no, not even one) can do those actions... unless they
were "elected" by God before the foundation of the world.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

.
The "works theology" argument you and others with a more Reform bent to their thinking employ is a sham and a bunch of strawman blather with zero teeth with which to bite.
Doug

Listen Doug, we both know there have been TWO major
theologies in the "church" since the time of the Apostles.
While going through several transformations and name
changes, one of those "gospels" is called Arminianism.


You follow that false gospel where MEN save themselves.


You can say the Gospel followed by the Apostles and Reformers
is a "sham and a bunch of strawman blather with zero teeth"...
but in the end we are really only looking at TWO choices:


(1) the (false) gospel that teaches MAN is sovereign
(2) the (true) Gospel that teaches GOD is sovereign

It is really as simple as that.


Now, personally, I have found that men who cannot trust
God to be Sovereign will always follow some form of WORKS
gospel (Arminianism). And men who can (by the grace of God)
trust God completely - follow what you call a Reformed Gospel.


Only ONE can be the TRUE GOSPEL... the other leads into hell.
I am MUCH more comfortable believing GOD is Sovereign
rather than MAN is sovereign...


But I agree with you that is the minority position...
because "narrow is the way..."


Jim

 

[Behold]

You are just hilarious...

First you say the unbeliever TRUSTS and then they have FAITH
and then God sees this (what they have done) and saves them.

Then you are so delusional as to think that TRUST and FAITH
are not WORKS... after proclaiming they come from unsaved men.

Faith and Trust, ...are not works.
These both happen on the inside of a person.
God alone sees Faith that He accepts, once, to give a person the new birth.

Born again happens once.
It happens because God sees your faith in your heart, that is TRUST in Christ.
You can't see it, you can only have it. God however can see it.
A person is then "justified by faith" without works.

Here is how the NT defines "faith".

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

 

[5thKingdom]

Faith and Trust, ...are not works. These both happen on the inside of a person.
God alone sees Faith that He accepts, once, to give a person the new birth.

You say that "faith" is not a work and then, in the same breath,
you say it happens INSIDE a person (that is a work) and that
"God alone SEES" that faith you have... and THEN He acts.


Not only do you pretend that MAN is sovereign in salvation, you
intentionally IGNORE (or reject) that the Bible insists that REAL
"faith" is GIVEN by God... it does not "happen on the inside
of a person"... God does not SEE your faith, that is heresy.


You are following (and teaching) a FALSE GOSPEL where man
does his part FIRST (man is sovereign) and then God SEES this
good act of man and, therefore, God acts SECOND in the process.
This is a man-made "works gospel", it has no basis in Scripture.
It pretends MAN is sovereign over God.


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


In your false gospel, not only is man sovereign (acting first)
but you can legitimately BOAST to all the unsaved that, if they
had just done what YOU DID... they would be saved also.
In fact, that is what you preach... "do what I did".


You are following and teaching a false "works gospel" that
cannot save anyone. It is a heresy and the Scripture teaches
that heretics cannot enter the "Kingdom of God". So I suggest
that you pretend just as HARD as you can now because the end
will not go well for anyone following a "works gospel".


Now, I realize that this truth is not taught in many churches today.
The vast majority of churches teach (as you do) that man acts first
and THEN God sees what man has done - and God acts second.
But the reason this is the majority opinion in churches today is that
FEW (in the churches) will be saved when the Lord Returns... the
apostasy of the churches was foretold and is expected... your
false "works gospel" is expected to be the norm at the end.


So you keep ignoring what Ephesians 2:8-9 says, just pretend
faith is NOT a gift from God... that God SEES man's faith THEN
God acts... and pretend just as HARD as you can now, because
it will not end well for anyone preaching heresy [Gal 5:20]


Luk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you [in the churches], will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, [in the Final Harvest] and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, [the unsaved call Jesus "Lord"] open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. [the unsaved sincerely thought they were saved] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Note:
In the history of the church there has always been TWO major theologies in the church. One says MAN acts first (man is sovereign) and God SEES what man has done - and THEN God acts. The other theology says GOD acts first (God is sovereign) and man can only act AFTER God has "drawn" him and given him "faith" as a GIFT. Everyone in the church throughout history had to decide which Gospel they will follow. The Gospel where they could boast "do what I did"... or the Gospel that we can only cry out for mercy because GOD is sovereign and HE must have chosen us before the foundation of the world... NOT based on any act/work that we would do... but based ONLY on His Good Pleasure.


.