5thKingdom

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Jim,

This is your quotation related to the issue of a man initiated salvation:

(Emphasis mine)

We were not talking about man being able to initiate the salvation process because I would never say that. You were projecting your interpretation of my argument as saying such, but that is not what I said.

Nor did I ever suggest you believe man initiates salvation. But you are the only one between us that, until now, has used those words to describe the salvation process.

Doug


If I did "project my interpretation of your argument" then
I apologize for that. I only vaguely remember the discussion
and my memory (at this point) is that you did argue that man
has some "limited sovereignty" in the salvation process... though
I cannot remember if it was in the initiation of the process.

In any case:

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I often read too fast
and have been guilty of thinking something was said when it
was not.

I do not (ever) intentionally twist someone's words so any
fault in this case would have been entirely unintentional.

Jim
 
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TibiasDad

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Most people cannot even get their mind around the reality that
Jesus identified the Christian era as a "Kingdom of Heaven"...
and just will not accept the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" named
in Matthew 22:2 and referenced again in Matthew 21:43

As John Wesley once said, "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true." Since Darby's advent of dispensationalism came some 40 years after Wesley's death, I think that dispensationalism is a new(er) thing relative to historic Christian thought.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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If I did "project my interpretation of your argument" then
I apologize for that. I only vaguely remember the discussion
and my memory (at this point) is that you did argue that man
has some "limited sovereignty" in the salvation process... though
I cannot remember if it was in the initiation of the process.

In any case:

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I often read too fast
and have been guilty of thinking something was said when it
was not.

I do not (ever) intentionally twist someone's words so any
fault in this case would have been entirely unintentional.

Jim

Fair enough! We all have the problem of reading to fast and assuming we know what the other person means.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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I have to respectfully disagree.
The way I see it, man can be born spiritually dead and lose
all ability to make a move toward God and still be able to have
the "free will" to chose what clothes to wear or what food to eat.

And my perspective is different only in that fact that man's sovereignty of volition is only halted by God's willingness to be chosen, and his initiation of the process to be found. The soul was created to be in fellowship with God, and the absence of such creates a natural longing for, hunger for fulfillment. Man cannot remedy this problem in his own power or by his own means, for only God can restore the broken relationship, for he is the only one offended.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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But you are going too far when you say we MUST be able to
seek God because we are commanded to do so...

I'll have to stop your right here, because your premise is wrong, and therefore creates a strawman to attack:

I am not saying that we have the ability to seek God because he commands us to seek him; I say we have the ability to seek him b cause God has made himself available to found! That's why I referenced Acts 17:24-28 earlier in our conversation, specifically when Luke quotes Paul saying, "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." "So that they would seek him", necessarily includes the presumption of capacity.

Doug
 
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TibiasDad

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Yes, that is my point exactly.
If man is sovereign in the salvation process, if man can do some
"work" to initiate the process then God is OBLIGATED to save that
man and finish the process. That is my main argument against the
idea that men can "save themselves"... it makes MEN sovereign
over God.

Jim
And thankfully, that is not my argument, nor the argument of the Arminian theologian.

Doug
 
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5thKingdom

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As John Wesley once said, "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true." Since Darby's advent of dispensationalism came some 40 years after Wesley's death, I think that dispensationalism is a new(er) thing relative to historic Christian thought.

Doug


With all due respect for John Wesley, Daniel 12:8-10 contradicts
his view. Clearly the fulfillment of end-time prophecies MUST be
new information. Clearly the understanding of the last generation
of Saints MUST include new information.

Just as the Christian Saints understood more than the
Jewish Saints, who understood more than the Pre-Flood
Saints. God has always revealed His Gospel in a progressive
manner... that a historical fact that even secular men can see.

For example: there can be no dispute that Jesus actually NAMED
separate and distinct (temporal) "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth,
they are NAMED in your Bible... is this "new information"? No,
but the understanding of this Truth is new.

I do not like the term 'dispensationalism".

I prefer to say that the history of man is a reflection of God's
salvation plan over four distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven". The
first was obviously the Pre-Flood Kingdom which contained all
the Saints from Adam to Noah. When that Kingdom was finished
all living saints were "harvested" (on the Ark, which is a picture
of Jesus) into the next Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" which is
specifically NAMED in Matthew 22:2 and referenced again in
Matthew 21:43.

When that Kingdom was finished all the living saints were
"harvested" into the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
specifically NAMED eight times in Matthew 13, and in other
places, as the Saints followed Jesus and His disciples out
of the Jewish Kingdom.

When the Great Commission is finished, when all the Saints
have been "sealed" [Rev 7:3] when the testimony of the
Two Witness (representing the church) is "finished" [Rev 11:7]
all the living Saints are "harvested" into the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" which Jesus specifically NAMED in
Scripture. [Mat 25:1].

Matthew's Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" is also
shown as the Revelation Beast and Daniel's Fourth Kingdom.
The people in the Great Tribulation are called ten "virgins",
these same people are called ten "kings/horns" in Dan 7
and Rev 17. These people are the same and the events
are the same, which gives us a much better perspective
of what occurs during that "Kingdom".

And so, there is no doubt these four "Kingdoms of Heaven"
exist because Jesus NAMED each of them. Is this NEW
INFORMATION, yes it is... as was foretold in Daniel 12:8-10.
In fact, that passage PROMISES this information could not
be known by any Saint until the "time-of-the-end" or the
"Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12]

Was this information that God intended Great Commission
Saints to understand... no, it was not [Acts 1:7]. Now,
make no mistake, I am not saying the Last Saints know
the Day or Hour of His Return. I am saying certain things
can be known as PROMISED in Daniel 12:8-10 and as
Jesus PROMISED in Matthew 24:15 and 24:33.

It is clear we can know about these four "Kingdoms"
which Jesus NAMED in Scripture... and much more.
It is also clear that this information remained "sealed"
to previous Saints like Augustine and Luther and Calvin
and Wesley.

Of course I have only touched the tip of the iceberg above.
My purpose was only to show you that this information exists,
it cannot be denied because it is specifically NAMED by Jesus.
However, even thought the information is provided in Scripture
that does NOT mean it will be understood or accepted, in fact,
the Bible PROMISES it will not - except by the Last Saints to
which it is revealed.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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And thankfully, that is not my argument, nor the argument of the Arminian theologian.

Doug


I don't know if I agree with that statement... but the term
Arminianism has come to mean so many things today... as
has the term Calvinism. I was watching a debate by James
White last night and I disagree with several points he made.
I am glad that is not YOUR belief. And maybe we can explore
this issue farther in the future.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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I'll have to stop your right here, because your premise is wrong, and therefore creates a strawman to attack:

I am not saying that we have the ability to seek God because he commands us to seek him; I say we have the ability to seek him b cause God has made himself available to found! That's why I referenced Acts 17:24-28 earlier in our conversation, specifically when Luke quotes Paul saying, "God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." "So that they would seek him", necessarily includes the presumption of capacity.

Doug


Since we have Scripture that teaches NO MAN will seek God and
since we have Scripture that teaches NO MAN can come to Christ
unless they are specially "drawn"... I have to question the context
of any passage that says those who seek Him will find Him since
the harmony of Scripture seems (to me) to indicate that ONLY
the elect will seek Him or find Him. We cannot assume that every
or any passage has a context that includes everyone ever born.
Many passages have a context that is limited ONLY to the elect.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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And my perspective is different only in that fact that man's sovereignty of volition is only halted by God's willingness to be chosen, and his initiation of the process to be found. The soul was created to be in fellowship with God, and the absence of such creates a natural longing for, hunger for fulfillment. Man cannot remedy this problem in his own power or by his own means, for only God can restore the broken relationship, for he is the only one offended.

Doug


I agree with what you said, except you did not indicate WHO would
be restored to God. Since it is only the elect we have to accept the
limitations of that context. God never implies He can be sought or
found by every person ever born, if fact, He says the opposite.

Jim
 
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TibiasDad

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I agree with what you said, except you did not indicate WHO would
be restored to God. Since it is only the elect we have to accept the
limitations of that context. God never implies He can be sought or
found by every person ever born, if fact, He says the opposite.

Jim

The question of the Elect, is a necessary point of clarification.for this conversation to continue on an even plane. I say the Elect are those who believe the Gospel, you, I think, say the Elect are predetermined by God from all eternity.

So the answer for me would be all who believe!

Doug
 
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