impeachment process for Bush and Cheney started

[Lludmila]

Thanks for the support...these kinds of threads get real heated sometimes and I do not always (usually) follow the party line. Have a good day!

 

[InVision]

What a stupid idea and a waste of tax payers dollars. When are the Libs going to realize they keep making themselves look bad.

 

[irateional]

What a stupid idea and a waste of tax payers dollars. When are the Libs going to realize they keep making themselves look bad.

Right.

Because conservatives, libertarians and moderates are libs too.

Ok.

 

[irateional]

I want to talk about terrorism for a minute. It seems that "Terrorism" has become a buzzword of sorts (at least in America). Does anyone really know what it means?

It grates on me that people associate terrorism with Islam. You know about the Christian (Protestant and Catholic) terrorists in Northern Ireland and other places in the British Isles?

My $0.02.

Please don't think that all Muslims are terrorists ~OR~ that all terrorists are Muslims!!!!!!!!

True.

Then again, most nations have done evil things. I mean we've targeted civillians in prior wars before.

We fund coups of democratically elected leaders, and we do maintain troop presences in country's that don't want us there (Saudi Arabia for example). Most other countries resent us because we meddle in everything, but we don't help them usually. We help ourselves at their cost.

No one's perfect though.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Our military and foreign policy is what is causing terrorism. I mean, if you look at where the US has stuck its fat, grubby fingers, its not surprise that we have so many people hating us.

How many women were raped in front of their husbands last 4 years in Iraq?

How many children were murdered in front of their parents?

How many water treatment plants are fully functional and actually delivering potable water to homes in Iraq for the first time in more than 20 years?

How many schools are open and being used for schools instead of weapons storage warehouses in Iraq?

How many women were killed in Afghanistan in the last 4 years for improperly wearing a burkha?

How many villages were razed to the ground by warring muslim factions in Afghanistan?

How many people were murdered for simply believing in Y'shua in Afghanistan?

yeah...our military is really the cause of terrorism *snerk*

 

[irateional]

How many women were raped in front of their husbands last 4 years in Iraq?

How many children were murdered in front of their parents?

How many water treatment plants are fully functional and actually delivering potable water to homes in Iraq for the first time in more than 20 years?

How many schools are open and being used for schools instead of weapons storage warehouses in Iraq?

How many women were killed in Afghanistan in the last 4 years for improperly wearing a burkha?

How many villages were razed to the ground by warring muslim factions in Afghanistan?

How many people were murdered for simply believing in Y'shua in Afghanistan?

yeah...our military is really the cause of terrorism *snerk*

Umm yeah. Got some bad and good news for you on those.

The rape one is true. Thank God that's ended

But...insurgents murder people all the time, often whole families. I'm not saying this proves against us, but it's also disingenous to assume IRaq is perfect.

The water treatment plants are our fault. We destroyed Iraq's infastructure in the first gulf war. Then crippled Iraq economically, so that they couldn't afford to fix them.

Schools are getting fixed. That's true. Then again, it's houses that are used for weapons storage.

In Afghanistan, not much has changed. There's still a lot of horrible things going on, and we've diverted troops from Afghanistan to Iraq, and the result has been increased resurgence of the Taliban. Read the NY Time article on how we're losing the good war in Afghanistan.

But your right. Our military doesn't commit "terrorism" by your definition. But just like ANY military, we kill civillians and innocents by accident. Hiding the fact is dangerous, as it sterilizes the horror that war is.

 

[KEPLER]

The water treatment plants are our fault. We destroyed Iraq's infastructure in the first gulf war. Then crippled Iraq economically, so that they couldn't afford to fix them.

This is the biggest crock of ... poo; I get SOOOOO tired of hearing people regurgitate this nonsense.

Do you not recall seeing the crate upon crate upon crate of hard currency (i.e., U.S. dollars) which were discovered after the initial invasion?
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/war.tracker/04.19.index.html
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=520272003

How many palaces did Saddam Hussein build DURING the time in which the U.N. (not the U.S.) was "crippling" Iraq's economy? Estimates are he built about 30, in addition to the 19 that he had before Gulf War 1.

Oh, yes, they could have afforded to fix them. There is absolutely no doubt about it.

But your right. Our military doesn't commit "terrorism" by your definition. But just like ANY military, we kill civillians and innocents by accident. Hiding the fact is dangerous, as it sterilizes the horror that war is.

Except that our military has these things (perhaps you've heard of them?) called uniforms. People can see the from a long way off; they know we're coming. We don't hide in nurseries and mosques.

Our military doesn't commit terrorism by ANY rational definition.


Sorry, pal, but "them dogs don't hunt."

 

[Gwenyfur]

Umm yeah. Got some bad and good news for you on those.

The rape one is true. Thank God that's ended

But...insurgents murder people all the time, often whole families. I'm not saying this proves against us, but it's also disingenous to assume IRaq is perfect.

The water treatment plants are our fault. We destroyed Iraq's infastructure in the first gulf war. Then crippled Iraq economically, so that they couldn't afford to fix them.

Schools are getting fixed. That's true. Then again, it's houses that are used for weapons storage.

In Afghanistan, not much has changed. There's still a lot of horrible things going on, and we've diverted troops from Afghanistan to Iraq, and the result has been increased resurgence of the Taliban. Read the NY Time article on how we're losing the good war in Afghanistan.

But your right. Our military doesn't commit "terrorism" by your definition. But just like ANY military, we kill civillians and innocents by accident. Hiding the fact is dangerous, as it sterilizes the horror that war is.

Reach back before DS a by another 4 years and you'll find that Saddam did no maintenance or upkeep to the treatment plants...those are completely his fault...read a little more history, I was there!

As for the New York times, MSM would love for you to believe that if you don't read that rag your uniformed...however...if you do...you're only misinformed.

 

[Touma]

Umm yeah. Got some bad and good news for you on those.

The rape one is true. Thank God that's ended

But...insurgents murder people all the time, often whole families. I'm not saying this proves against us, but it's also disingenous to assume IRaq is perfect.

The water treatment plants are our fault. We destroyed Iraq's infastructure in the first gulf war. Then crippled Iraq economically, so that they couldn't afford to fix them.

Schools are getting fixed. That's true. Then again, it's houses that are used for weapons storage.

In Afghanistan, not much has changed. There's still a lot of horrible things going on, and we've diverted troops from Afghanistan to Iraq, and the result has been increased resurgence of the Taliban. Read the NY Time article on how we're losing the good war in Afghanistan.

I can agree with most everything here..

But not this:

But your right. Our military doesn't commit "terrorism" by your definition. But just like ANY military, we kill civillians and innocents by accident. Hiding the fact is dangerous, as it sterilizes the horror that war is.

I think you forget many instance of the US military killing innocents on purpose. Happened in Vietnam, and happens now. To hide THAT fact is more dangerous, because it makes it seem like our military is a sweet little angel, when its not.

 

[Touma]

Except that our military has these things (perhaps you've heard of them?) called uniforms. People can see the from a long way off; they know we're coming. We don't hide in nurseries and mosques.

Funny how people denounce guerrilla warfare when its the other side. I seem to remember that some people called founding fathers, using at least some tactics of guerrilla warfare to help defeat the british. Its a tactic that people use when they face a superior military. We have used it, so how can we denounce it.

Our military doesn't commit terrorism by ANY rational definition.

Don't make me laugh. Training foreign officers to help start a coup in latin american nations, which led to militaristic dictatorships that killed tens of thousand dissidents, seems to be terrortastic to me. Or what about inventing new weapons to cause more damage to people? Mmm, the smell of terror in the morning! How about US forces intentionally attacking civilians, then being let off by US military courts? Gotta love dem turrirists!!1! Should i even mention the illegal military camps holding 'combatants' indefinitely, without charges, going against the Geneva convention? How about using nuclear weapons on civilians? How about hiring private security forces, aka mercenaries, which have no leash attached to them? They are allowed to kill who ever, when ever, and get paid for it. Our military causes fear and terror in people. Isn't that terror?

You see, when you quit listening to the propaganda machine that is the government and look at whats really happening around the world, you begin to understand everything much better.

 

[jad123]

I can agree with most everything here..

But not this:


I think you forget many instance of the US military killing innocents on purpose. Happened in Vietnam, and happens now. To hide THAT fact is more dangerous, because it makes it seem like our military is a sweet little angel, when its not.

He's Baaaaack!!!

 

[Touma]

He's Baaaaack!!!

Party time?

 

[jad123]

Party time?

I haven't seen the anti-bush, anti-US, anti-military, anti-everything posts for a while.

Anyway, would mind giving me an example where the US is purposely killing innocent people right now.

 

[irateional]

This is the biggest crock of ... poo; I get SOOOOO tired of hearing people regurgitate this nonsense.

Do you not recall seeing the crate upon crate upon crate of hard currency (i.e., U.S. dollars) which were discovered after the initial invasion?
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/war.tracker/04.19.index.html
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=520272003

How many palaces did Saddam Hussein build DURING the time in which the U.N. (not the U.S.) was "crippling" Iraq's economy? Estimates are he built about 30, in addition to the 19 that he had before Gulf War 1.

Oh, yes, they could have afforded to fix them. There is absolutely no doubt about it.



Except that our military has these things (perhaps you've heard of them?) called uniforms. People can see the from a long way off; they know we're coming. We don't hide in nurseries and mosques.

Our military doesn't commit terrorism by ANY rational definition.


Sorry, pal, but "them dogs don't hunt."

You're a fool. Sorry, but you didn't even stop to think. Look, when the US Military is everywhere, where the hell else are people going to go? People actually live in Iraq, believe it or not. If US equipment goes rolling down the street and a firefight breaks out, you can't exactly, run now can you? So then continuing the hypothetical, if some insurgents are shooting at the US from a position on the block, and your house gets bombed by a US Airplane, how is it your fault that you got bombed?

The US is occupying Iraq, not invading it. That means people can't FLEE everytime the US is patrolling down the street.

 

[Touma]

I haven't seen the anti-bush, anti-US, anti-military, anti-everything posts for a while.

Anyway, would mind giving me an example where the US is purposely killing innocent people right now.

I'm sure you can ask any Iraqi and they'll tell you of such atrocities.

or you can watch this video. WARNING its graphic and has cursing, but it does need to be seen:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17393.htm

or this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6943511.stm
another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AXN3H3BPQU

Im sure you can google lots more.


BTW if those videos are not allowed, then please don't ban me or anything! Just trying to give him the proof he looks for.

 

[KEPLER]

There's an old saying: "If you're not liberal when you're young, you don't have a heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, you don't have a brain."

I remember my idealistic halcyon days of college. I met Jesse Jackson back in '87, man can that guy work a room. I protested apartheid in SA, volunteered for Greenpeace, ate vegan for a while, stopped shaving my legs ...oh, wait...scratch that one...participated in the impeachment of a corrupt Rethuglican governor (Evan Meacham of Arizona). Ah, those were the days.

And then I grew up.

Funny how people denounce guerrilla warfare when its the other side. I seem to remember that some people called founding fathers, using at least some tactics of guerrilla warfare to help defeat the british. Its a tactic that people use when they face a superior military. We have used it, so how can we denounce it.

Tell you what, why don't you stop staring at that cheerleader's butt and start paying attention in your history class. Guerrilla warfare IS NOT terrorism. In NOT ONE single instance did the Continental forces attack civilians. IF only the insurgents in Iraq would rise to the level of guerrilla warfare, and stop planting bombs in marketplaces, shopping malls and Mosques. If only.

Oh,and BTW, Michael Moore does not count as serious history.

Don't make me laugh. Training foreign officers to help start a coup in latin american nations, which led to militaristic dictatorships that killed tens of thousand dissidents, seems to be terrortastic to me. Or what about inventing new weapons to cause more damage to people? Mmm, the smell of terror in the morning! How about US forces intentionally attacking civilians, then being let off by US military courts? Gotta love dem turrirists!!1! Should i even mention the illegal military camps holding 'combatants' indefinitely, without charges, going against the Geneva convention? How about using nuclear weapons on civilians? How about hiring private security forces, aka mercenaries, which have no leash attached to them? They are allowed to kill who ever, when ever, and get paid for it. Our military causes fear and terror in people. Isn't that terror?

You see, when you quit listening to the propaganda machine that is the government and look at whats really happening around the world, you begin to understand everything much better.

...
...
(I'm waiting for the punch line...?)

I mean...that was a joke, right?

***tap tap tap***

Is this thing on?

You're a fool.

Perhaps. But I'm also a Mod. Watch it.

Sorry, but you didn't even stop to think. Look, when the US Military is everywhere, where the hell else are people going to go? People actually live in Iraq, believe it or not. If US equipment goes rolling down the street and a firefight breaks out, you can't exactly, run now can you?

First of all, you need to look up the word "hyperbole." Practice using it in a sentence 10 times a day.

As for your question, that depends entirely on the situation. In the case of Fallujah, if you'll recall, not only did U.S. Forces give civilians ample time to vacate the town, they actually provided the transportation. On the other hand, if a firefight suddenly breaks out...

So then continuing the hypothetical, if some insurgents are shooting at the US from a position on the block, and your house gets bombed by a US Airplane, how is it your fault that you got bombed?

It's not the homeowners fault; the fault lies SQUARELY and ONLY on the insurgents who were using the house (or Mosque, or hospital, or nursery) for cover.

The US is occupying Iraq, not invading it. That means people can't FLEE everytime the US is patrolling down the street.

Let's see...140,000 troops in a country the size of Texas. Yes, I'm sure it's U.S. military personnel as far as the eye can see....

Ah, well. Enjoy your youth, boys. You'll be entering the real world soon enough. (and, like, no, I'm tooootally NOT talking about some wicked kewl show on MTV...)

 

[Gwenyfur]

This looks like atrocity to me

That's not the act of a child living in fear of US Troops...hiding behind a US Soldier is an act of trust...faith...security.

As I said, try doing some reading of some material outside of MSNBC, CNN, and Hollyweird, and find the truth!

 

[Touma]

This looks like atrocity to me

That's not the act of a child living in fear of US Troops...hiding behind a US Soldier is an act of trust...faith...security.

As I said, try doing some reading of some material outside of MSNBC, CNN, and Hollyweird, and find the truth!

No it shows that he was taking cover. I'd hide behind the soldier too if i was scared. I'd hide behind a clown if i was scared.

 

[Gwenyfur]

are you even looking at the action in those photos?

do you even see...

the crowd...the entire crowd, all except that young boy are running in the opposite direction...

the boy runs for the Soldier.


There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

 

[Touma]

are you even looking at the action in those photos?

do you even see...

the crowd...the entire crowd, all except that young boy are running in the opposite direction...

the boy runs for the Soldier.


There are none so blind as those who refuse to see...

well if the soldiers are so loved there, then wouldn't the entire group rush to hide behind the solider, and any of his comrades?