Immortal soul a lie?

[GenemZ]

I've tried looking at this from every angle I can think of but I still don't understand how you get to the conclusion you do.

Why would the doctrine of an immortal soul be void just because the serpent lied?

Death was conditional, (don't eat of the tree), but there were no conditions for life. Adam wasn't commanded to eat from the tree of life to stay alive, so it seems to me more logical to think of him as living, body, soul and spirit, forever. Hence, he was created with an immortal soul.

I'm afraid I just don't follow your logic.

peace

Adam died spiritually when he ate. No more human spirit functioning with his soul. We are now all born spiritually dead.

Matthew 8:21-22 (New International Version)
"Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."


But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."​

All souls are seen by God as being dead until they are born again. This refers to spiritual death.




Yet, mortality refers to the soul itself. Not the state of the soul (no physical life - no spiritual life with God).

​

Luke 16:27-29 (New International Version)
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'



"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."
​

Jesus was letting us know, that in the next dimension the soul enters, there is a world that causes the soul pain. Its an immaterial world that matches the immaterial soul in a way that causes torment and feelings of agony.

Luke 16:24 (New International Version)
"So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."


​

The final place of agony (Lake of Fire) will be existing in eternity.....

Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "


​

To be forever.. would mean the soul is immortal as far as its immaterial existence.

Yet, it will be dead both spiritually and physically if he is an unbeliever.




Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

 

[sthatting]

Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad. Genesis 3:1-5

And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,— Genesis 3:22

What was the first lie?

That we would not die.

Doesn't that make the immortal soul doctrine a lie?

If I may, I'd like to share my thoughts on this particular subject.

Man and woman were immortal beings before eating of the fruit. Our bodies die, we do not; we are not our bodies. Hope that helps.

 

[angelmom01]

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

Our life IS HID (hades = UNSEEN) with Christ in God...

 

[Fireinfolding]

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

Our life IS HID (hades = UNSEEN) with Christ in God...

Your here, what took ya so long?

 

[GodsChild07]

Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad. Genesis 3:1-5

And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,— Genesis 3:22

What was the first lie?

That we would not die.

Doesn't that make the immortal soul doctrine a lie?

Are you confusing physical death and spiritual death? The body dies, but the spirit, your soul, is immortal.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

Our life IS HID (hades = UNSEEN) with Christ in God...

Seems these folks made the "unseen" a "seer". See the unseen? Huh? KEWL!!!!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with Sh@'owl we-made a seer/02374 chozeh, a-Scourgeoverflowing that passeth-over, not he-shall-enter-in-to-us. That we set a-lie/kazab as a-refuge-of-us/machaceh, and in-falsehood/sheqer we-are-concealed/cathar.'

02374 chozeh {kho-zeh'} active participle of 02372; TWOT - 633b; n m
AV - seer 16, see 3, agreement 1, prophets 1, stargazers 1; 22
1) seer
1a) seer
1b) vision

 

[jesusfreak3786]

If I may, I'd like to share my thoughts on this particular subject.

Man and woman were immortal beings before eating of the fruit. Our bodies die, we do not; we are not our bodies. Hope that helps.

Please use scripture to prove your claim.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Are you confusing physical death and spiritual death? The body dies, but the spirit, your soul, is immortal.

If that were true, Adam would have died "physically" at the time that he ate the apple.....makes no sense.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

Our life IS HID (hades = UNSEEN) with Christ in God...

Where that even begins to answer to my question....I just don't know, will you please add scriptural, and educational reference so I can research, and answer you back.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you confusing physical death and spiritual death? The body dies, but the spirit, your soul, is immortal.

I find Ezekiel 13 one of the most fasinating chapters concerning "souls".

(Rotherham) Ezekiel 13:17 And thou, Son of man Set thy face against the daughters of thy people, Those who are prophesying out of their own heart,-- And prophesy thou against them; 18 and say, Thus, saith My Lord Yahweh, Alas! for the women Who sew oracle, cases on all elbows And prepare wraps upon the head of every stature to hunt souls,-- the souls ye hunt, are those of my people, Whereas your own souls:, ye keep alive. 19 Thus have ye profaned me unto my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, Putting to death the souls that should not die, and Keeping alive the souls that should not live,-- By your lying to my people I who hearken to lies 20 Therefore, Thus saith my Lord Yahweh, Behold me! against your oracle-cases where. with ye are hunting the souls to make them fly, And I will tear them off your arms, And let go the souls of them whose souls ye are hunting as birds;

Revelation 18:13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.

 

[sawdust]

Yet, mortality refers to the soul itself. Not the state of the soul (no physical life - no spiritual life with God).

I agree. If the soul did not have the condition of immortality then it would make no sense for those who end up in the lake of fire being tormented forever.

As far as I can see, what is meant by "immortal soul" is the soul's ability to be forever conscious irrespective of it's surroundings.

If the essence of the soul, ie self-consciousness, mentality etc is not forever existing (immortal), then the scriptures regarding Lazarus and the rich man or the torment of the eternal fire is nonsense.

If the soul is mortal then why hasn't the Lord given us the thrid option of oblivion? It's always a choice between life and death. Death would not have a sting if there was no awareness for the soul caught in it's web. Death would be no more than something like a deep sleep. Where's the torment in that?

Ok. I think I'm rambling. I better stop.

peace

 

[sawdust]

If that were true, Adam would have died "physically" at the time that he ate the apple.....makes no sense.

Again I ask ... why?

You need to explain your frame of reference a little more.

Why must spritual death and physical death necessarily occur at the exact same moment?

peace

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I agree. If the soul did not have the condition of immortality then it would make no sense for those who end up in the lake of fire being tormented forever.

As far as I can see, what is meant by "immortal soul" is the soul's ability to be forever conscious irrespective of it's surroundings.

If the essence of the soul, ie self-consciousness, mentality etc is not forever existing (immortal), then the scriptures regarding Lazarus and the rich man or the torment of the eternal fire is nonsense.

If the soul is mortal then why hasn't the Lord given us the thrid option of oblivion? It's always a choice between life and death. Death would not have a sting if there was no awareness for the soul caught in it's web. Death would be no more than something like a deep sleep. Where's the torment in that?

Ok. I think I'm rambling. I better stop.

peace

Do you actually believe that a loving God would eternally torment his children?

Picture this, you have a son, he is destroying your household. If you don't stop him, he will eventually bring it down.

What are you going to do? You could kill him(which for any parent to do would be hard enough) or you could rig his hand above a flame and leave him screaming in pain and agony for the rest of eternity.

If you do not get rid of him somehow he will kill your other children whom love you very much, he hates you. Are you just going to get rid of his existence completely? Or are you going to sadistically torture him for all time?

Remember we are made in God's image, what you would be willing to do (out of love) and what He would be willing to do are similar.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Again I ask ... why?

You need to explain your frame of reference a little more.

Why must spritual death and physical death necessarily occur at the exact same moment?

peace

I don't know what your trying to do, but if you take the time to go back and read through my posts, I have never said they both have to occur at the same time.

What I am saying is that when we die, we don't exist, except for in God's memory, there is no more we, or I, or you. We are not aware of anything at all.

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. ECCLESIASTES 9:5

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What I am saying is that when we die, we don't exist, except for in God's memory, there is no more we, or I, or you. We are not aware of anything at all.

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. ECCLESIASTES 9:5

This was before Christ's resurrection. This was true before, but not after. The body and the soul were in the grave.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Rules - General Theology


The General Theology forums are for discussion of orthodox Christian theology, as defined by the Nicene Creed. Topics which are ruled upon by the Creed (ie., the Trinitarian nature of God) are not up for discussion. While everyone is welcome to participate, and questions are fine, all debates should come from a Nicene perspective. There is to be no promotion of non-Nicene doctrines.

Christian doctrines which are do not adhere to the Nicene creed can be discussed in the Non-Nicene Theology forums.

 

[GenemZ]

Do you actually believe that a loving God would eternally torment his children?

Satan and unbelievers are not his children.

John 8:41-44 (New International Version)
"You are doing the things your own father does."

"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
​

Picture this, you have a son, he is destroying your household. If you don't stop him, he will eventually bring it down.

Picture it more like this.. your son is Jeffrey Dahmer.

 

[GenemZ]

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

Our life IS HID (hades = UNSEEN) with Christ in God...

What are you saying? Hid = hades????


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Only one word found:

Hide, Hid, Hidden

A. Verbs

1. krupto
2. apokrupto
3. enkrupto
4. perikrupto
5. kalupto
6. parakalupto
7. lanthano

B. Adjectives

1. kruptos
2. apokruphos

You are saying that hades is to be found as the word for hid in Christ? really?


And?

It is THE TONGUE that is "a world of iniquity" and is "set on fire of hell" (hence the rich man asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue... being "tormented in this flame").

James 3:1-6?

That passage was written to BELIEVERS who malign and gossip!




It has NOTHING to do with the context of what was being spoken of.





All you did was to match keywords.





It makes absolutely no sense as you presented it.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Satan and unbelievers are not his children.

John 8:41-44 (New International Version)
"You are doing the things your own father does."

"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
​

Picture it more like this.. your son is Jeffrey Dahmer.

Really?!?!?!

Is the bible lying then?

Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them JOB 1:6

Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah. JOB 2:1

Who was Satan created by.....or is there another god who is contending the with the true God?

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Rules - General Theology


The General Theology forums are for discussion of orthodox Christian theology, as defined by the Nicene Creed. Topics which are ruled upon by the Creed (ie., the Trinitarian nature of God) are not up for discussion. While everyone is welcome to participate, and questions are fine, all debates should come from a Nicene perspective. There is to be no promotion of non-Nicene doctrines.

Christian doctrines which are do not adhere to the Nicene creed can be discussed in the Non-Nicene Theology forums.

The Nicene creed doesn't say our souls are immortal. That doesn't apply.